Re: Love Never Dies - all views allowed

operafantomet Wed Dec 07, 2011 9:04 am

So what's wrong with a little bit of post-publication background information? For me, it is possibility. As a graduate student of English literature, one of the things I most love about reading, and one of the first things I teach my students, is that you don't need to know whether Desdemona had sisters or what happened to Lady Macbeth's child to understand the work in front of you. Everything you need is at your fingertips. Your job as a reader is to use your imagination and analytical skills where the author has left off.

I also have come to embrace the concept of "intentional fallacy" — the idea that what an author means to say isn't necessarily important to interpreting a literary work. It's what she does say, and how a reader interprets it, that really matters. Rowling can tell us now what characters go on to do for a living or the significance of wand woods, but if these things aren't explicated in her books, we're free to disagree with her and interpret what's in the text for ourselves.

WORD!

And how refreshing that these thoughts are spoken by an English literature doctorate and not a "sad phan". Thank you for that link, SenorSwanky!

Scorp Thu Dec 08, 2011 10:26 am

I haven't read the article Swanky linked to yet, but for anyone who's interested, some further reading for you on this notion of the intentional fallacy and the death of the author:

http://faculty.smu.edu/nschwart/seminar/Fallacy.htm

http://evans-experientialism.freewebspace.com/barthes06.htm

http://iaaa.nl/cursusAA&AI/duchamp.html

PhantomsGhost Fri Dec 23, 2011 7:07 pm

Looks like LND is closing for good after being in Sydney for 6 months. Below image comes from today's The Courier Mail in Australia:

Love Never Dies - all views allowed - Page 22 Australia-TheCourierMail-12-23-2011

Love Never Dies - all views allowed - Page 22 Australia-TheCourierMail-12-23-2011

**Raphael** Thu Dec 29, 2011 4:28 pm

ALW's latest quote/excuse regarding LND:

I want to go back to the West End, in due course. The fact is, we made a miscalculation closing when we did in London … In the last few weeks of the West End run, people really started to get into it but by then it was too late to extend the season because the theatre had another booking.

Looks like he wants to send it on tour in Canada and Asia.

http://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/theatre/film-ensures-the-show-never-dies-20111229-1pe68.html#ixzz1hvw0Q2IT

TAFKaR

ML6 Fri Dec 30, 2011 12:48 am

Raphael wrote:ALW's latest quote/excuse regarding LND:

I want to go back to the West End, in due course. The fact is, we made a miscalculation closing when we did in London … In the last few weeks of the West End run, people really started to get into it but by then it was too late to extend the season because the theatre had another booking.
Looks like he wants to send it on tour in Canada and Asia.

http://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/theatre/film-ensures-the-show-never-dies-20111229-1pe68.html#ixzz1hvw0Q2IT

TAFKaR

LOL. People were getting into it because it was cheap theatre. Not because it held any merit whatsoever.

Madame Giry Fri Dec 30, 2011 12:59 am

I guess delusion never dies, either. Razz

I couldn't stop rolling my eyes as I read this article. However, it will be interesting to see if it the Aussie version does go to other international markets, though.

~Madame~

Scorp Fri Dec 30, 2011 1:37 am

Raphael wrote:ALW's latest quote/excuse regarding LND:

I want to go back to the West End, in due course. The fact is, we made a miscalculation closing when we did in London … In the last few weeks of the West End run, people really started to get into it but by then it was too late to extend the season because the theatre had another booking.
Looks like he wants to send it on tour in Canada and Asia.

http://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/theatre/film-ensures-the-show-never-dies-20111229-1pe68.html#ixzz1hvw0Q2IT

TAFKaR

Well, he's certainly tenacious if nothing else.

I am a bit perplexed by his statement that LND has a more complex score than Phantom though. Really? To me it sounds like a load of recycled melodies shoved together with no thought put in in how to blend them together. Say what you will about the title song of Phantom, but despite its anachronisms and slight anomalousness it still segues very well from 'The Mirror' into 'I Have Brought You'. Yet when you get to those awfully dated guitar chords that randomly come in to signal 'The Beauty Underneath', it's just cringeworthy. It either makes me laugh or cry for all the wrong reasons. Phantom also has a lot of detail in its score in terms of how the motifs are used and reused, not to mention the minutiae of the whole-tone scale and tritones of the Phantom's opera. What exactly is more complex about the score for LND? scratch

And while I love Sunset Blvd, that too is a patchwork quilt of melodies that came from ALW's trunk. I think it's a great score, but it does get repetitious in the second act from the endless reprises (actually, even in the first act) in a way that Phantom doesn't.

I do find it slightly telling though that when ALW bigs up LND, he bigs up his score massively but says nothing about the story. Absolutely nothing. Now, as the composer, it's normal for ALW (and particularly ALW, who doesn't seem to care much about getting first-rate lyrics for many of his musicals) to do this, but with the other two musicals of his he refers to, he does talk about their stories often in interviews. In interviews about LND these days, he just doesn't mention any aspect of the plot at all. Has he realised that it's not a winner, perhaps, but is hoping that the show will survive solely on the score's merits?

And suggesting a West End revival just because people came at the end? Um, usually that happens to big musicals when they're about to close. Doesn't mean their shelf-life is longer. No wonder Cameron thinks Andrew doesn't have a producer's head. I think the "not rushing into Broadway" thing is a euphemism for it not happening. ALW is clearly dying for it to go to Broadway, he even said the Oz version would do as soon as it opened. Not to mention the whole simultaneous productions all over the world idea.

operafantomet Fri Dec 30, 2011 1:59 am

Scorp wrote:And suggesting a West End revival just because people came at the end? Um, usually that happens to big musicals when they're about to close.

That was my immediate thought as well. Even rumours of a production closing can bring loads of people to the theatre.

I remember ALW writing or saying something around the RAH concert on this matter, about him being talked into closing the production (but regretting it later). He didn't mention anything about wanting to extend but couldn't cause the theatre was taken. And if I remember correctly, it was a rush decision to close LND, not something well planned. Remember Ramin Karimloo and the others not getting any notes on it, and instead having to read it on Twitter? They not knowing what to believe for half a day, before finally getting a call confirming the closing?

I can very well imagine ALW not wanting to close it. But the main reason it closed was that they lost so much on keeping it open, every week, every day. The investors, producers and for all I know theatre owners wouldn't accept it any more. Some of them wanted to book another musical, and they were quite clear on that, even publicly. But from everything told in the past, they didn't book a new production until it was decided LND was to close. A new production didn't make LND close, it was because LND closed they could book it... It's a bit "the chicken and the egg", I know... But I get the feeling ALW is twisting words again to explain why his Opus Magnum failed.

**Raphael** Fri Dec 30, 2011 2:05 am

The sadistic side of me wishes it would come to Broadway, only because I'm sure the NY critics would have a field day ripping it apart.

TAFKaR

Scorp Fri Dec 30, 2011 2:15 am

Raphael wrote:The sadistic side of me wishes it would come to Broadway, only because I'm sure the NY critics would have a field day ripping it apart.

TAFKaR

You won't say that when it starts touring the US after a flop Broadway run! It's just better kept awaaaaaaay from your country. (And mine, for that matter).

**Raphael** Fri Dec 30, 2011 4:56 am

Yeah, you're probably right Smile

TAFKaR

Madame Giry Fri Dec 30, 2011 6:19 am

Raphael wrote:The sadistic side of me wishes it would come to Broadway, only because I'm sure the NY critics would have a field day ripping it apart.

TAFKaR

Meh, he'd just blame a couple of obsessive fans from Canada for posting messages from Utah that fool/mislead/manipulate all the critics and media into panning the show. Rolling Eyes

That being said, it *would* be fun to see the NY theatre critics savage LND. Twisted Evil

But that would also mean that LND will have come to Broadway and would be cross-marketed at the Majestic.

No thanks.

~Madame~

Bric Fri Dec 30, 2011 8:43 am

operafantomet wrote:
Scorp wrote:And suggesting a West End revival just because people came at the end? Um, usually that happens to big musicals when they're about to close.
That was my immediate thought as well. Even rumours of a production closing can bring loads of people to the theatre.

I remember ALW writing or saying something around the RAH concert on this matter, about him being talked into closing the production (but regretting it later). He didn't mention anything about wanting to extend but couldn't cause the theatre was taken. And if I remember correctly, it was a rush decision to close LND, not something well planned. Remember Ramin Karimloo and the others not getting any notes on it, and instead having to read it on Twitter? They not knowing what to believe for half a day, before finally getting a call confirming the closing?

I can very well imagine ALW not wanting to close it. But the main reason it closed was that they lost so much on keeping it open, every week, every day. The investors, producers and for all I know theatre owners wouldn't accept it any more. Some of them wanted to book another musical, and they were quite clear on that, even publicly. But from everything told in the past, they didn't book a new production until it was decided LND was to close. A new production didn't make LND close, it was because LND closed they could book it... It's a bit "the chicken and the egg", I know... But I get the feeling ALW is twisting words again to explain why his Opus Magnum failed.

LND had been booking until January of 2012, but posted closing notices for August 27, 2011, after word leaked out on Twitter that it was going to close early.

There were rumors that Camelot would follow LND at the Adelphi, but One Man, Two Guvnors transferred in about two months after LND closed (Previews began November 8, 2011) and is there for a limited run, until February of 2012.
Sweeney Todd opens in March of 2012.

So---they closed the show early and suddenly for a three-month run of One Man, Two Guvnors ? Did they already know in July/August of 2011 that Sweeney Todd would be transferring and to the Adelphi?

Possible, I suppose, but what I think is that this whole "Oh, we closed it too early just when it was catching on" stuff is clap trap, balderdash, or less kindly, it might be a damned lie.

ML6 Fri Dec 30, 2011 9:58 pm

What's going to happen when the DVD of Love Never Dies comes out?

ARE WE GOING TO GET SOME CLASSIC REVIEWS UP IN HERE? (Or from anybody worth reading on the net?) I'd love to see some critics tear it apart, in all its 1080HDDOBYDIGITALSOUND glory.

Scorp Sat Dec 31, 2011 1:11 am

ML6 wrote:What's going to happen when the DVD of Love Never Dies comes out?

ARE WE GOING TO GET SOME CLASSIC REVIEWS UP IN HERE? (Or from anybody worth reading on the net?) I'd love to see some critics tear it apart, in all its 1080HDDOBYDIGITALSOUND glory.

Message to those who dislike LND: if you feel the need to review, I do hope you'll have the sense NOT to purchase the DVD and obtain the video by...some other means. Andrew doesn't need your money. Not for this, anyway...

Loettchen Mon Jan 02, 2012 2:12 am

Hahaha, Scorp!

I can't believe someone as seasoned as ALW is in musical theater (delusional or not) could actually put stock in the idea that the sudden increase in ticket sales at the end was due to building interest in the show rather than a combination of morbid curiosity, people rushing to see it before it closes, and general hype about the closing itself. He's either unbelievably gullible or he thinks we are, which is even sadder. Ah, farewell, my fallen idol and false friend. One by one I've watched illusions shatter.

**Raphael** Sun Jan 08, 2012 5:03 pm

I could have sworn I read somewhere that the Sydney run of LND was cancelled, but apparently it opens today:

http://www.playbill.com/news/article/158315-Andrew-Lloyd-Webbers-Love-Never-Dies-Lives-On-in-Sydney-Beginning-Jan-8

R.

operafantomet Sun Jan 08, 2012 5:22 pm

Raphael wrote:I could have sworn I read somewhere that the Sydney run of LND was cancelled, but apparently it opens today:

http://www.playbill.com/news/article/158315-Andrew-Lloyd-Webbers-Love-Never-Dies-Lives-On-in-Sydney-Beginning-Jan-8

R.

I think it was further touring that was cancelled - I.E they planned to go to Perth (?) and a couple of other cities, but they decided not to. The ticket sale in Melbourne was decent, but not sky rocketing, and I assume Sydney will be the same. That said, all musicals in Australia struggles right now, with one or two exceptions, if journalists are to be believed. Sadly for ALW, LND is not one of the exceptions.

Bric Mon Jan 09, 2012 12:11 am

Raphael wrote:I could have sworn I read somewhere that the Sydney run of LND was cancelled, but apparently it opens today:

http://www.playbill.com/news/article/158315-Andrew-Lloyd-Webbers-Love-Never-Dies-Lives-On-in-Sydney-Beginning-Jan-8

R.

Oh, yes, it's opening. Some of its fans are jumping up and down because some of the first shows are sold out.

StrangerThanUDreamt Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:35 am

Scorp wrote:
ML6 wrote:What's going to happen when the DVD of Love Never Dies comes out?

ARE WE GOING TO GET SOME CLASSIC REVIEWS UP IN HERE? (Or from anybody worth reading on the net?) I'd love to see some critics tear it apart, in all its 1080HDDOBYDIGITALSOUND glory.

Message to those who dislike LND: if you feel the need to review, I do hope you'll have the sense NOT to purchase the DVD and obtain the video by...some other means. Andrew doesn't need your money. Not for this, anyway...

Speaking of reviews a few have trickled out..sorry to dissapoint you but they are actually GOOD reviews...I understand there are varying opinions on the show, but I would never root to see a show trashed by critics, it's done enough without extra fuel, even with shows I dont like, I couldnt root for its demise, we may not like the content of a certain piece but keep in mind these are/were working actors/actress' jobs...and I dont know exactly how I'd handle others rooting for my place of work to be ripped apart by critics..just a thought...

Scorp Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:56 pm

StrangerThanUDreamt wrote:
Speaking of reviews a few have trickled out..sorry to dissapoint you but they are actually GOOD reviews...I understand there are varying opinions on the show, but I would never root to see a show trashed by critics, it's done enough without extra fuel, even with shows I dont like, I couldnt root for its demise, we may not like the content of a certain piece but keep in mind these are/were working actors/actress' jobs...and I dont know exactly how I'd handle others rooting for my place of work to be ripped apart by critics..just a thought...

I wouldn't have any qualms about rooting for the demise of a show that has done the following:

a) shown an enormous amount of disrespect and disregard to the content, image, reputation and legacy of another piece of art that I care much more about;

b) scapegoated innocent people in order to save its image;

c) has had its life artificially perpetuated by hubris and vanity, when there are are superior shows out there crying out for a home in theatreland;

d) created bloodbaths in the industry amongst former cast members and creative team members;

e) created and perpetuated an enormous amount of vicious lies concerning its finances and its reception as a desperate bid to save face;

f) continuously insulted The Phantom of the Opera in a bizarre attempt to make it look superior.

As for actors losing their jobs, they are not in permanent jobs and they know that. They are talented, and they'll find other jobs.

As for a run allegedly being cancelled, that was actually Brisbane, not Sydney. Sydney got its run shortened.

I am a bit disturbed by ALW's tenacity and the new hype about the DVD and how this will supposedly lure investors for a potential Broadway production. That said, if those potential investors do invest, I won't feel any sympathy for them when they don't get their money back. Only a stupid person IMHO would choose to invest in this. The London production proved that sticking the tag 'Phantom' on it doesn't automatically make it a hit.

**Raphael** Fri Jan 20, 2012 12:56 am

Scorp wrote:
I wouldn't have any qualms about rooting for the demise of a show that has done the following:

a) shown an enormous amount of disrespect and disregard to the content, image, reputation and legacy of another piece of art that I care much more about;

b) scapegoated innocent people in order to save its image;

c) has had its life artificially perpetuated by hubris and vanity, when there are are superior shows out there crying out for a home in theatreland;

d) created bloodbaths in the industry amongst former cast members and creative team members;

e) created and perpetuated an enormous amount of vicious lies concerning its finances and its reception as a desperate bid to save face;

f) continuously insulted The Phantom of the Opera in a bizarre attempt to make it look superior.

Agreed. LND is Lloyd Webber's pet project and his ego is getting in the way of good business sense. The product itself is mediocre at best. And if lots of people love the score, ALW can always recycle it for a different show down the road. Not like he hasn't done that before.

And as for the actors, my beef isn't with them, it's with the show. A lot of the actors are very talented and deserve to be in a better show and working with better material.

R.

PS: I should supplement this post to say that it's perfectly fine if people like the show, it's your prerogative. A lot of us simply have reasons to neither like it nor support it.

LadyCDaae Fri Jan 20, 2012 1:39 pm

LND is Lloyd Webber's pet project and his ego is getting in the way of good business sense.

Honestly? I think it's because he has nothing else left. His well of inspiration has run dry--he hasn't had a hit show (at least on Broadway) since PotO, and in my opinion he hasn't written a good score since Sunset Boulevard. He desperately wants LND to succeed because the only other option is admitting that it's over, his time has passed and he needs to retire or descend into reality-show host mediocrity. Which is sad for him, of course, but not nearly as sad as the fact that he can't deal with it gracefully.

~LCD

ML6 Sun Jan 22, 2012 12:29 am

StrangerThanUDreamt wrote:
Scorp wrote:
ML6 wrote:What's going to happen when the DVD of Love Never Dies comes out?

ARE WE GOING TO GET SOME CLASSIC REVIEWS UP IN HERE? (Or from anybody worth reading on the net?) I'd love to see some critics tear it apart, in all its 1080HDDOBYDIGITALSOUND glory.

Message to those who dislike LND: if you feel the need to review, I do hope you'll have the sense NOT to purchase the DVD and obtain the video by...some other means. Andrew doesn't need your money. Not for this, anyway...

Speaking of reviews a few have trickled out..sorry to dissapoint you but they are actually GOOD reviews...I understand there are varying opinions on the show, but I would never root to see a show trashed by critics, it's done enough without extra fuel, even with shows I dont like, I couldnt root for its demise, we may not like the content of a certain piece but keep in mind these are/were working actors/actress' jobs...and I dont know exactly how I'd handle others rooting for my place of work to be ripped apart by critics..just a thought...

Love Never Dies - all views allowed - Page 22 Tumblr_lpsasujAfK1qhzwhho1_500

Scorp Fri Jan 27, 2012 10:10 am

ALW is in New York right now to promote the LND DVD and convince foolish investors to back this show.

He's done an interview that completely rubs me the wrong way: http://popwatch.ew.com/2012/01/26/andrew-lloyd-webber-responds-to-critics-talks-phantom-at-25-love-never-dies/

In it, he says that Phantom's success is down to its score (nothing about story, design, direction...), admits that LND is a sequel after denying that for so long and dismisses Tim Rice's comments about his reality TV shows.

Lalilaloli Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:41 pm

LadyCDaae wrote:
LND is Lloyd Webber's pet project and his ego is getting in the way of good business sense.

Honestly? I think it's because he has nothing else left. His well of inspiration has run dry--he hasn't had a hit show (at least on Broadway) since PotO, and in my opinion he hasn't written a good score since Sunset Boulevard. He desperately wants LND to succeed because the only other option is admitting that it's over, his time has passed and he needs to retire or descend into reality-show host mediocrity. Which is sad for him, of course, but not nearly as sad as the fact that he can't deal with it gracefully.

~LCD

I honestly wished that I didn't agree with this but unfortunately I think you are right . I used to adore ALW's music but for the last 10-15 years...well for me it has been one big disappointment after another Crying or Very sad

. A friend of mine actually suggested (after a rant of mine) that ALW no longer wrote his music himself and instead had and ghost-writer who did his work. *Shrug*. I suppose that it would at least explain things Neutral

**Raphael** Fri Jan 27, 2012 3:46 pm

Scorp wrote:ALW is in New York right now to promote the LND DVD and convince foolish investors to back this show.

He's done an interview that completely rubs me the wrong way: http://popwatch.ew.com/2012/01/26/andrew-lloyd-webber-responds-to-critics-talks-phantom-at-25-love-never-dies/

In it, he says that Phantom's success is down to its score (nothing about story, design, direction...), admits that LND is a sequel after denying that for so long and dismisses Tim Rice's comments about his reality TV shows.

What an arrogant --! Why the hell do I keep giving this man my money?

At least with Las Vegas closing I won't be doing that for awhile...

R.

ML6 Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:11 pm

In response to the bit about Tim Rice:

Well I think we just say look, we won an international Emmy for the first show we did. And the fact that one of the girls has just been cast by the National Theatre in a leading role — that’s the answer to that.

I hope Tim Rice takes that comment further, I know I would.

StrangerThanUDreamt Wed Feb 01, 2012 3:14 am

On the short note I see where Tim is coming from

on an unrelated note; I cant help but wonder why almost every major character from POTO was carried over into LND except Carlotta...now while Im a fan of the score I do believe the show has it problems, but do you think Carlotta's presence could've helped flesh out the thin story-line? It would seem to me if any character were to seek revenge on Christine it would be this one, for some reason I imagine it turning into a higher-art version of little mermaid with Carlotta trying to "steal" Christines voice, LOL.

operafantomet Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:29 am

StrangerThanUDreamt wrote:On an unrelated note; I cant help but wonder why almost every major character from POTO was carried over into LND except Carlotta...now while Im a fan of the score I do believe the show has it problems, but do you think Carlotta's presence could've helped flesh out the thin story-line? It would seem to me if any character were to seek revenge on Christine it would be this one, for some reason I imagine it turning into a higher-art version of little mermaid with Carlotta trying to "steal" Christines voice, LOL.

Well, Carlotta IS in LND. Kinda. Meg Giry is now Carlotta, the grand Prima Donna and Christine's sworn enemy, while Fleck is Meg, the young dancer on the sideline. It's the same structure, basically, just with other names.

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