Love Never Dies - all views allowed

Cape Twirl of Doom wrote:I managed to see LOVE NEVER DIES this past Friday evening! I was in London for one night, got to my hostel at 6:45pm, dropped off my things and managed to get to the theatre by 7:30. While the house did appear full, there were seats available in every price range, even right up front. On a Friday night in the middle of summer, 2 minutes before showtime, that doesn't seem like it bodes well for future sales.

Word is that they're papering the house quite regularly now as well...

When I first heard Ramin sing "Til I Hear You Sing" a few months ago, I wasn't really impressed, however during the show I was blown away! I thought it was simply because it was live and in character, but at intermission I went to buy a program and found out that it was actually the understudy Tam Mutu on as The Phantom! Wow! He is outstanding! What a stunning and powerful voice.

It sounds like Ramin is off as often from LND as he was from Phantom. Does anyone know why this is?

I'll be honest and say that, as a show, if you completely forget that it's a sequel to POTO and that we've seen the characters before, it was pretty good. [...] Of course, as a sequel to POTO, the plot is shit. Yes people could change within 10 years, but it's not likely that every character would do a complete 180 from how we knew them before. It's a complete fantasy that these are how the characters from POTO would end up, it's like a bad fan-fiction romance novella or something. Once I just told my brain to pretend it was a show with new characters instead of a sequel, I quite liked it.

Of course, the problem with this approach is that Love Never Dies categorically IS a sequel and the producers seem to be admitting this finally with the new posters and branding. If this does ever get to Broadway, you can bet they'll be making a huge deal out of the Phantom connection as that's the only way they're ever going to get an audience.

No-one should have to pretend the show is something it is not in order to get some hint of enjoyment out of it.

I'm not sure I'd even like it without the PoTO connection; those lyrics are just dire and those melodies are just too familiar from previous use.

(And it seemed like if it must be a sequel, it was clearly a sequel to the film version, and not the stage show.)

ALW must be now infuriated that Joel set the film in 1870..."ten years roughly" = 37 years, LOL.

Out of curiosity, did it get a standing ovation?

I did a rather nice guided theatrical history tour of London today and was amused that, when we stopped outside the Cambridge Theatre where once upon another time The Beautiful Game ran, the guide decided to inform the group that ALW's big song from that show was now in Love Never Dies...

Scorp wrote:

Of course, the problem with this approach is that Love Never Dies categorically IS a sequel and the producers seem to be admitting this finally with the new posters and branding. If this does ever get to Broadway, you can bet they'll be making a huge deal out of the Phantom connection as that's the only way they're ever going to get an audience.

Oh, definitely. And clearly it relies on the audience being familiar with the events of the first show to really understand the backstory of the characters. It was just as I was watching it I kept thinking, "...that's not how The Phantom would react... Oh that's not what happened!... A gun, really? The Phantom is so nonthreatening now that he has to have a gun to be scary? Well I guess he comes to America and they have to immediately give him a gun... Yeah right, like Raoul would do that... WTF Christine loved Raoul, he wasn't some second place prize that she was unhappy with! ...the night before their wedding? Literally "the night just before you were wed." Really? Really!? So now Christine is a cheating slag (but it's OK cause it's twoo wuv), Raoul's an abusive drunk, Mme Giry practically pimps out her own daughter to keep themselves employed, and The Phantom is the romantic hero? Bahhh, why can't this just be the story of say, Justine, her husband Saul and the Phantasm from their past? "

Out of curiosity, did it get a standing ovation?

Some people stood. A few where I was in the front of the Upper Circle and a bunch more down in the very front of the Stalls, but it wasn't the whole house.

Scorp wrote:

Cape Twirl of Doom wrote:When I first heard Ramin sing "Til I Hear You Sing" a few months ago, I wasn't really impressed, however during the show I was blown away! I thought it was simply because it was live and in character, but at intermission I went to buy a program and found out that it was actually the understudy Tam Mutu on as The Phantom! Wow! He is outstanding! What a stunning and powerful voice.

It sounds like Ramin is off as often from LND as he was from Phantom. Does anyone know why this is?

Last week was a previously announced holiday period.

Paula74 wrote:I didn't even need to click on that link to know what site was being referred to. As soon as there was mention of symbols, I immediately thought of PGN and the Hidden Plot.

I just looked up "Hidden Plot" in the dictionary. The entry says, "see: b@tsh!t crazy".

R.

Cape Twirl of Doom wrote:So now Christine is a cheating slag (but it's OK cause it's twoo wuv) ... Mme Giry practically pimps out her own daughter to keep themselves employed

For those who are curious, I still have the sequel to my "Whack-A-Raoul" flash-based game (the LND-inspired "Slap-A-Ho") on my to-do list. I just can't bring myself to go anywhere near anything LND-related in order to do the visual research.

R.

Raphael wrote:

Paula74 wrote:I didn't even need to click on that link to know what site was being referred to. As soon as there was mention of symbols, I immediately thought of PGN and the Hidden Plot.

I just looked up "Hidden Plot" in the dictionary. The entry says, "see: b@tsh!t crazy".

R.

I read about them in Encyclopedia Dramatica. If they came in here and started trolling this board with their 'insights', I don't know if I'd be able to contain myself and be civil. I love everyone here, even the newcomers, because they are polite and everyone is allowed their say. But seriously, these people I am *very* warry of, and their past on other boards...

Quote from starryeyed on Sat Mar 27, 2010 3:51 am page 14 "I think I had Tyler Fagan as Gustave and he was okay, none of them really do much in this scene".

Tyler Fagan was not Gustave at this performance, but he did play the beach boy bit.

Sorry, I didn't catch the cast board because I was in an awful mood and it was packed.

Which is more than can be said for the 2nd July performance I saw where Tyler WAS Gustave. Very empty, and tickets available at all levels at 7.25 pm. Oh dear.

Speaking of this performance, I had an understudy Meg, and had quite a few thoughts on some of the changes. Would anyone care for a mini review?

Also, it was most definitely the last performance I'll ever have to go to (I wish you could buy say a £2 ticket for the second act as I strangely really like it) as everyone I know who wants to go has been.

starryeyed wrote:Speaking of this performance, I had an understudy Meg, and had quite a few thoughts on some of the changes. Would anyone care for a mini review?

Definitely! What were the changes - were they related to the actress or the show?

Changes in the show and changes due to Jessica being Meg, I definitely preferred her to Summer. She struck me as a very POTO Meg though, but it sort of worked, I didn't really get the "free and easy" vibe from her. I'll post some thoughts soon.

When is it coming to Broadway? I'm sure it was already discussed but I really don't feel like reading all 22 pages. I'm just not up to speed on LND because of my lack of interest in it. The only reason I want to see it when it comes to Broadway is because Sierra is in it.

I think the most definite we've heard is Spring 2011. I am sure I heard Ramin and Sierra leave LND in February.

Also changes, well, there's been a few. We all know by now about the Phantom appearing in the "Graveyard gear" in the prologue now. I actually thought this was quite a good addition but wasn't entirely sure on the point of it? There was something Ramin did that made it work though but I can't put my finger on it, it was very spooky anyway. I have a feeling I might have enjoyed this just because it was from the original though.

The biggest change is Only For Him/ You. There is this really odd arabian dancing part preceding it, this odd tune plays that just seems out of place (in keeping with tradition I guess) and two dancers dance around for what seems an age. Eventually one reveals they are a bearded woman. This character is played by Annette Yeo for the record and is not a man in drag as I've seen it reported. Then it goes into the revised Only For Him/ You which is basically now a massive group number involving the whole company (except of course Christine, Phantom, Raoul, Gustave.) It starts of with Meg singing a slightly different part which is basically a plea to the Phantom to come see her and then it kicks into what we know as Only For You, the lyrics might be slightly different but it's the same tune. It does actually sound quite good when sung by such a large ensemble BUT and it pains me to say this the ensemble just isn't tight enough to pull off the choreography. It has been so over choreographed now there is lots of alternating kick lines and big ensemble routines and this is just something that to look good needs to be tight. Unfortunately, it wasn't there were lots of people half a beat behind and people who were not using the length of their arms properly (sorry dancer in me coming through) and it looked a bit of a mish mash. It's a shame, this really does have potential to look impressive and I understand they might not have been doing this routine for too long so I'll let them away with it - I guess.

Then, this might not be a change, I may just not have noticed it previously but The Phantom is now in the scene at the Pier at the very back. He is standing with a trench coat and a hat hiding the masked side of his face, he skulks around for a bit then walks off when the carriage arrives. Some people seem to like this change, mainly E/C shippers so meh it doesn't bother me either way.

In Beneath a Moonless Sky Christine now goes to hug The Phantom and slaps him. Well she is supposed to, but the evening I saw it Ramin grabbed Sierra's arm to stop her. I didn't like that for two reasons: 1. I don't see the character of Christine slapping anyone, ever, it just doesn't seem in her nature and 2. Ramin was very agressive in the way he grabbed her arm, it was almost a bit like "abusive Raoul" so it didn't endear you to the character in my opinion.

Also Gustave, no longer stands on the piano during The Beauty Underneath, which I like because for some reason I thought it just looked blasphemous to stand on a grand piano like that.

Also in DTTH Ramin has now added in a little bit when he turns round and Joseph jumps back he smirks, waves and says "hi" it's quite funny and fits with the scene. I'm describing it all wrong, it really has to be seen.

And the final change (that I noticed or can remember at the minute) is The Phantom puts the ring on Christine's finger once she's dead.

Now, there were probably more changes, I can't remember just now, if I remember any I will of course post them.

Also actor's changes:

Jessica Kirkland was on as Meg and I much preferred her to Summer. She was a very POTO Meg and I think this made her a lot more vulnerable and made you feel for her character. She was also a lot more believable in the final scene, she is also very pretty for the record. I actually liked her a lot, after shooting Christine she ran to her mother and clung to her and just crumpled when The Phantom sent Mme. Giry off to get help.

Also, I was glad to see Sierra Boggess seems to have calmed down her acting a lot, it's a lot more subtle which I like.

Tyler Fagan was Gustave, he was pretty good, he had a nice voice.

ETA: I should have posted my mum's thoughts which can be summarised as this "The first act was Andrew Lloyd Webber on an acid trip but the second act was good because it was more like the original.

But to elaborate on that, she said if you were to completely seperate it from Phantom and it was truly its own show you could see it was very good. She thought the effects were good and liked the whole spectacle of it all. She did say she kept thinking about Phantom around the corner though and that these people on stage at the Adelphi were just "impostors." Ha!

Thank you starryeyed!

starryeyed wrote:
Also changes, well, there's been a few. We all know by now about the Phantom appearing in the "Graveyard gear" in the prologue now. I actually thought this was quite a good addition but wasn't entirely sure on the point of it? There was something Ramin did that made it work though but I can't put my finger on it, it was very spooky anyway. I have a feeling I might have enjoyed this just because it was from the original though.

Don't you think that is the very (and only) reason it was added? Apparently they found that trying to separate LND from POTO in peoples' minds wasn't working as well as they liked, and now they've gone completely the other way with the changed advertising logo and these little additions to the show.

starryeyed wrote:...In Beneath a Moonless Sky Christine now goes to hug The Phantom and slaps him. Well she is supposed to, but the evening I saw it Ramin grabbed Sierra's arm to stop her. I didn't like that for two reasons: 1. I don't see the character of Christine slapping anyone, ever, it just doesn't seem in her nature and 2. Ramin was very agressive in the way he grabbed her arm, it was almost a bit like "abusive Raoul" so it didn't endear you to the character in my opinion.

I think that the Christine of the Final Lair could have slapped someone if she had continued to grow up as time passed. She went from being pretty much the manipulated patsy to being much more assertive as the show went on. Christine as she was originally portrayed in LND seems to have reverted to the rather clueless, easily manipulated Christine of early in POTO. Maybe they are TRYING to have her be less of that---although they can't do very much since in a key turning point she is the prize in a bet between the two men, and she doesn't know it. This business has always reminded me of hapless women who have supposedly been lost and won in poker games.

The LND "Phantom" has been criticized because he is too much a love-sick ordinary guy who has solved his "anger issues" and has none of the danger and anger, among other things, of the Phantom in POTO. I think that they have made small changes to try to make him a little more recognizable as the Phantom of the Opera.

starryeyed wrote:ETA: I should have posted my mum's thoughts which can be summarised as this "The first act was Andrew Lloyd Webber on an acid trip but the second act was good because it was more like the original.

But to elaborate on that, she said if you were to completely seperate it from Phantom and it was truly its own show you could see it was very good. She thought the effects were good and liked the whole spectacle of it all. She did say she kept thinking about Phantom around the corner though and that these people on stage at the Adelphi were just "impostors." Ha!

I vote you mum Critic of the Year

Bric I agree with all your comments. I do think they are just trying to make it more and more like the original and I do believe Final Lair Christine could slap someone. Perhaps you're right and it's more that LND Christine who has reverted back to being a bit hapless couldn't slap anyone. I just feel there is a lot of inconsistencies, of course the obvious ones but also even within the show itself, characters seem to jump around and never really settle. It's very odd and clearly a problem with the book.

And thanks, I think she should be Critic of the Year too, I should probably post her thoughts more often, she comes out with great one liners that completely sum someone up.

starryeyed wrote:Bric I agree with all your comments. I do think they are just trying to make it more and more like the original and I do believe Final Lair Christine could slap someone. Perhaps you're right and it's more that LND Christine who has reverted back to being a bit hapless couldn't slap anyone. I just feel there is a lot of inconsistencies, of course the obvious ones but also even within the show itself, characters seem to jump around and never really settle. It's very odd and clearly a problem with the book.

Based on much of her behavior---especially being, for the most part, the pawn of the two men---she doesn't seem over bright or very spirited, but they give her a reason to slap him that seems to make sense in the show. I don't know for sure, but I think that the slap was added after the Opening. Regardless, the fact that they have changed dialogue and added bits and pieces here and there just adds to the inconsistencies. It's kind of a patchwork.

--Musing on my part: unfortunately, I am getting the impression that more audience members are enjoying LND a lot. I bookmarked a search for Love Never Dies on Twitter. Most of the tweets are affirmations of the writer's belief in the undying nature of true love, but every 30 tweets or so there is one about the show, and more of them are of the "I love LND!" variety. Based the little avatar pictures and what I've found when I looked at the writer's other tweets, I believe that most of those who truly believe that love never dies are quite young (from my point of view), teens or early twenties. I wonder if a lot of the people who just LOVE the show (on Twitter or not) are pretty young. Does being young make it easier to buy into the whole idea of the show? I read on a theater board that much of the audience at one performance was coach-trip older people, but I suspect that they are less likely to be repeat attenders---or "offenders"--- and I think the ones who have seen LND multiple times are young.

POTO has (and has always had) young fans, but it has appealed to all ages.

Well, my "theory" might be all wet. There are a lot of people who just don't care what has been done to the characters or the effect and meaning of the Final Lair. If they can see a show in which the thwarted lovers are together (briefly), can hear some pretty ALW music, and have a good cry at the end....they're fine with it.

starryeyed wrote:And thanks, I think she should be Critic of the Year too, I should probably post her thoughts more often, she comes out with great one liners that completely sum someone up.

Give Mum a forum for her good ones

I will sometime soon definitely, I need to try remember them all then take her to more shows so she can give opinions again, she used to not like Simon Bailey in the original and actually came out with the funniest, most blunt reason ever but I need to remember the exact words before I reveal it as it was actually hilarious. She really likes him now for the record though, so it's all in jest these days. But her summaries of shows are good, ha.

And, no, well maybe most of the fans and repeat fans are young but I do know of a few older ones who certainly go a fair bit...

ETA: Apparently ALW's previous biggest spinner and supporter of LND Baz from the Daily Mail has now actually written an article criticising it. Shock horror.

Director Jack O'Brien has left the show. LND will close for two weeks at the beginning of November and then re-open. ALW wants to get Hal Prince involved - Hal is having none of it.

Damn right Hal is having none of it. As for the November closure, it seems RUG have backed out of this as apparently people can book tickets for those dates now. Does that mean they're not going to bother 'fixing' the show?

LSD came up on my Facebook feed the other day mentioning some bizarrely pointless feedback survey that RUG has posted on the LND Facebook page. Since none of answers that can be given to this survey are remotely useful in helping them to know how to improve the show, perhaps it is for promotional purposes so they can say all surveyed people loved the show (since it's only been shared with LND FANS). Sharing the link now so that those of you who didn't get this come up on your feed can similarly fill out the survey:

http://assets.reallyuseful.com/loveneverdies/survey/

NOTE that you can only fill out this survey once (unless you do it from a different IP) so here are the options if you want to think about it beforehand (stolen from another board -- I take no credit for transcribing this):

1. Gender

2. Age

3. Where do you live?

4. How many times have you seen the show?
More than 10
Between 5 and 10
2 to 5 times
Once
I have not seen the show yet but I have heard the album
I have not seen the show or heard the album

5. If you have not yet seen the show, please let us know why

I live outside the UK
I live in the UK but too far from London
I have tickets for a future date
I am interested in the show but have not yet got around to booking
I have no interest in seeing the show
Not applicable

6. If you have already seen the show, would you go to see it again?

Yes, definitely. I have already booked.
Yes, definitely, I would consider it
No, I don't think so
Definitely not
Not applicable

7. Have you seen The Phantom of the Opera?

8. How well, if at all, would you say you know the story of The Phantom of the Opera?

Not at all
I know a little about it.
Quite well
I am very familiar with the story
I am an expert

9. What is your favorite aspect of Love Never Dies"

That it contains the same characters as The Phantom of the Opera
The music
The cast members
The story
The whole experience
Not applicable

10. And finally, would you recommend Love Never Dies to others?
I definitely would
I probably would
I probably wouldn't
I definitely wouldn't
Not applicable


Incidentally they're promoting this show like there's no tomorrow. Aside from the hundreds of new posters around London (and, apparently, those banners in HM's), I have now received 3 promotional brochures/DVDs from RUG. Wish they had been so active in promoting the Evita revival when it was running. They're definitely promoting this way more than The Woman in White. It feels as though something much larger is at stake this time...

I agree, I think it's promotional reasons behind the survey, and not actually wanting an opinion from the audience. The questions are more "tell us how much you like it" than "what should be kept and what should be changed".

Scorp wrote:
Incidentally they're promoting this show like there's no tomorrow. Aside from the hundreds of new posters around London (and, apparently, those banners in HM's), I have now received 3 promotional brochures/DVDs from RUG. Wish they had been so active in promoting the Evita revival when it was running. They're definitely promoting this way more than The Woman in White. It feels as though something much larger is at stake this time...

A lot of money and ALW's ego? He has, as we know, wanted to do a sequel for years and has defied all the odds finally to get it on a stage.

By the way, I've posted the survey a couple of places not frequented by LND fans, not that it is likely to do any good. It's their survey, and they can do exactly what they want with it. They could disclose all of the results. They could cherry-pick certain questions/answers that are favorable and use them in advertising. They could keep all the results to themselves. I'm sure you noticed that unlike many online surveys, it was not possible to see the results so far after taking the survey.
It will, at least, be interesting to see what, if anything, they do publicly with the survey.

starryeyed wrote:
ETA: Apparently ALW's previous biggest spinner and supporter of LND Baz from the Daily Mail has now actually written an article criticising it. Shock horror.

Sounds like someone isn't getting their bribes perks anymore.

R.

Scorp, on another forum, you said about Hal Prince,

"It's not just Paradise Found that precludes the possibility of Hal Prince directing; the simple fact is is that Prince doesn't particularly like the idea of the sequel. He has always said in interviews that the sequel has never interested him, partly because he thinks the premise is not believable (a sentiment I completely agree with), and partly because he doesn't want to retread old ground. One interviewer also quoted Hal has saying that he believed in "leaving the original as it was".

Do you have a citation or link for the "premise is not believable" or his saying that he believed in "leaving the original as it was" ?

I would love to have them if you do. I haven't been able to find Hal's saying anything quite that specific.

Bric wrote:Scorp, on another forum, you said about Hal Prince,

"It's not just Paradise Found that precludes the possibility of Hal Prince directing; the simple fact is is that Prince doesn't particularly like the idea of the sequel. He has always said in interviews that the sequel has never interested him, partly because he thinks the premise is not believable (a sentiment I completely agree with), and partly because he doesn't want to retread old ground. One interviewer also quoted Hal has saying that he believed in "leaving the original as it was".

Do you have a citation or link for the "premise is not believable" or his saying that he believed in "leaving the original as it was" ?

I would love to have them if you do. I haven't been able to find Hal's saying anything quite that specific.

Only going by faint memory here, didn't he say something like that in an interview he did in Vegas? It was a while after the Vegas premiere, when it was decided ALW went ahead with LND and some info had leaked out. Around phan week, I think.

Bric wrote:
Do you have a citation or link for the "premise is not believable" or his saying that he believed in "leaving the original as it was" ?

I would love to have them if you do. I haven't been able to find Hal's saying anything quite that specific.

Voilà... there are a couple of other comments that I've read that diplomatically convey a negative attitude to the sequel, but I can't find them.

The director says he and composer Lloyd Webber always agreed "the women in the audience had better regret" that the heroine Christine (Kristi Holden and sometimes Kristen Hertzenberg) didn't stay with the Phantom.

"But of course that's not possible, because no one would believe it."

And it wouldn't have left room for the sequel.

Source: http://www.lvrj.com/neon/durable-phantom-anticipating-high-season-during-holidays-75766587.html

The topic of Boggess provided me a bridge to Love Never Dies, the bizarre Phantom sequel set in Coney Island that Andrew Lloyd Webber insists on foisting upon the world next year. Boggess is opening that, too, so this provided a segue. Yet Prince was noticeably mum on what he thought of Webber’s decision to revisit Phantom, saying only that he didn’t want to be involved because he believed in “leaving the original as it was.”

Source: http://www.lasvegasweekly.com/news/2009/sep/17/dont-call-it-downer/

He says he's “not remotely” involved in the making of an oft-reported sequel to “Phantom,” whose director is said to be Jack O'Brien, the longtime artistic director of the Old Globe Theatre who relinquished his active status there earlier this year.

“I heard (O'Brien) was going to do 'Phantom Goes to New York' or something,” Prince says of the sequel, whose official title is still a bit of a mystery.

“No, I think I couldn't do that. I've done my contribution to 'Phantom.'”

Source: http://legacy.signonsandiego.com/news/features/20080714-9999-1c14phantomm.html

Thank you!

These are not quite as good as they might be, but they are probably as close as we will ever get to Hal's saying, "It's a bad idea, and I want NOTHING to do with it!

I think that even LND would have been closed in London, ALW could stage it on Far East, 'cause the song "Love Never Dies" was translated in Mandarin (dialect of Chinese), Korean (this version was sung by Sumi Jo herself!) and Japanese.
Here are the links on YouTube (but I haven't listened this versions because I don't like LND at all).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbSzBErGelA&feature=related - Korean
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vd0XiutjhUg - Mandarin
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4zDlKu0f8A - Japanese

According to a post this morning on All That Chat,

LND is not coming to Broadway. People who were cast have been informed it is now on a infinite hold.

I can't say I'm that surprised.

Cape Twirl of Doom wrote:According to a post this morning on All That Chat,

LND is not coming to Broadway. People who were cast have been informed it is now on a infinite hold.

I can't say I'm that surprised.

I saw that thread, too.

And this just caught my attention on Twitter:

NY Times Artsbeat Blog - LND Looking Less Likely For Broadway This Season

ETA: More...this is from Riedel and it's being picked up in articles on Playbill, BWW, etc.

No Love Lost On Broadway

After reading those articles, I can't help but do a happy dance!

So Lord Bonkers (I think I like that nickname even better than Wee Andy) is blaming the director this time around? Interesting--I could have sworn he was going to work "unfair negative reaction from press/fans" angle. Maybe he has a bunch of excuses pinned up on the wall and he throws a couple darts at them whenever a project goes sour...

~LCD