Love Never Dies - all views allowed

I'm obviously not entirely unbiased, but I've generally retained a very high opinion of Lord Andy's music in spite of everything else. Regardless of what his detractors have always said, something about most of Lloyd Weber's music just works for me. And despite my complete aversion to a POTO sequel, I still had high hopes for the score, especially after hearing the "Coney Island Waltz," which I quite like in spite of its extreme similarity to a number of other songs. Therefore, I honestly planned to judge the music - the music, not the plotline or anything else - openly and hopefully. And I honestly do not care for almost any of the music I heard in those 30 second clips. I still think the "Coney Island Waltz" is lovely and I would very much like to hear more of "Beneath A Moonless Sky," but everything else is mediocre at the very best. Some songs, particularly the company numbers like "Heaven by the Sea," sound like jokes. I'm extremely disappointed, because the music is the one thing I expected to be good about this whole mess. I'll obviously need to hear all of the songs in their entirety before I can make a truly educated judgement, but these preview clips make it all sound pretty awful.

dolly-ry wrote:I had a major enthusiast actually say to me today they were really disappointed about what had happened to Raoul and the whole Christine saying the phantom left HER (not the other way round) confused them. Therefore, perhaps opinions aren't set in stone? They are still excited but seemed to be casting a more critical eye.

Now another debate to start up: Many are saying that there is no way ALW after heavily guarding the score would want to have previews to all tracks available on Amazon and this is some fault on Amazon's part. Imagine if this turns out to be true, ALW is certainly going to flip out.

Hmmm... Maybe only the most extreme opinions are expressed online. Cause what I've read so far is raving "reviews"; the CD tracks seems be exactly what the people wished for in terms of quality and feeling. But I guess that makes sense, that a lot of people still have this wait-and-see feeling, or the "whatever" attitude.

Raphael, I agree that no-one would be ready to change their opinion on this. But it just puzzles me so that people can perceive the quality of the score and lyrics THAT differently.

As for Amazon and the preview tracks... Didn't the same happen with the movie score? I must admit I was very surprised when I came online and saw that "the whole thing" (I.E. previews of all the songs) were available online before the theatre previews had started.

phantomgirl110 wrote:I'm obviously not entirely unbiased, but I've generally retained a very high opinion of Lord Andy's music in spite of everything else. Regardless of what his detractors have always said, something about most of Lloyd Weber's music just works for me. And despite my complete aversion to a POTO sequel, I still had high hopes for the score, especially after hearing the "Coney Island Waltz," which I quite like in spite of its extreme similarity to a number of other songs. Therefore, I honestly planned to judge the music - the music, not the plotline or anything else - openly and hopefully. And I honestly do not care for almost any of the music I heard in those 30 second clips. I still think the "Coney Island Waltz" is lovely and I would very much like to hear more of "Beneath A Moonless Sky," but everything else is mediocre at the very best. Some songs, particularly the company numbers like "Heaven by the Sea," sound like jokes. I'm extremely disappointed, because the music is the one thing I expected to be good about this whole mess. I'll obviously need to hear all of the songs in their entirety before I can make a truly educated judgement, but these preview clips make it all sound pretty awful.

And you know, I actually enjoyed the tracks The Ayrie and the Beneath a Moonless Sky. Those instrumental bits were quite pretty. But I agree with you.

Wow. Not sure what to say after listening to that. What were those writers smoking when they heard this and said it was some of ALW's best work?

I agree with others who figure Amazon boo-boo'd with releasing the clips. It isn't the first time they've done that.

The person at the beginning reminds me of one of John Leguizamo's character in Moulin Rouge. At first I thought it was a female but now I think it's either Squelch or Gangle. I thought the voice is heard later on in "Beautiful" with those two plus Fleck.

Where on earth is Madame Giry from? Seriously, what is that accent supposed to be? Certainly not Paris.

Does Meg have something going on with the Phantom?

Yup. Raoul does tell Christine to knock it off with her singing. Music in the background...Raoul -"Must you make that racket?" Christine -"But it's the aria I have to sing to-..." Raoul - "It hurts my head." After all he did for Christine in the original, I can't ever imagine Raoul turning into such a moron.

Christine sings, "Once upon another time you went off and left me alone..." Umm. OK. Last time I saw the show, it was Christine who left the Phantom. And she left with Raoul so how was that alone? Or did I see a different show?

Sigh. I hate Gustave being their son. Yes, we knew it was coming but it still stinks to hear it officially. So where exactly in the original did they do this deed? How old is Christine supposed to be in the sequel? Was she in her late teens when she had Gustave and Phantom is the daddy?

Phantom sounds like a mean, mean guy. And the rock song? What the heck is that? And the Phantom's accent? Why does Giry have such a thick accent and the Phantom's accent sounds like mine? I guess he wanted to drop all remembrance of his time in Europe.

After I heard this music I made like a good little fan/phan and finally cancelled my LND CD pre-order.

MasqPhan wrote:Sigh. I hate Gustave being their son. Yes, we knew it was coming but it still stinks to hear it officially. So where exactly in the original did they do this deed? How old is Christine supposed to be in the sequel?

Christine is officially a MILF. Oooh, the possibilities for tacky phanfic writers!

A lot of people seem to be under the impression that the Phantom and Christine could have had sex after "Music of the Night," but that 1) makes a couple of lines in the Final Lair lose all truth, 2) makes the Phantom a date-rapist, and 3) makes Christine six months pregnant by the end of the show. I think not.

phantomgirl110 wrote:A lot of people seem to be under the impression that the Phantom and Christine could have had sex after "Music of the Night," but that 1) makes a couple of lines in the Final Lair lose all truth, 2) makes the Phantom a date-rapist, and 3) makes Christine six months pregnant by the end of the show. I think not.

If Andrew couldn't care to take the dates (something so SMALL like a fu@king date) into consideration, what makes you think he'll care to take his own lyrics into consideration? OH, wait, that wasn't HIS lyrics... those were Charles Hart. Right...

phantomgirl110 wrote:A lot of people seem to be under the impression that the Phantom and Christine could have had sex after "Music of the Night," but that 1) makes a couple of lines in the Final Lair lose all truth, 2) makes the Phantom a date-rapist, and 3) makes Christine six months pregnant by the end of the show. I think not.

Oh, but the stage version is wrong! "Masquerade" is not half a year after the chandelier crash in the movie, it's only three months after. Right? So she is obviously only three months pregnant in the FL scene, and anyway she loves the Phantom so him raping her wasn't really a rape.

(please spot the sarcasm...)

Anyone who thinks sequel Christine suffers majorly from The Stockholm Syndrome?

operafantomet wrote:

phantomgirl110 wrote:A lot of people seem to be under the impression that the Phantom and Christine could have had sex after "Music of the Night," but that 1) makes a couple of lines in the Final Lair lose all truth, 2) makes the Phantom a date-rapist, and 3) makes Christine six months pregnant by the end of the show. I think not.

Oh, but the stage version is wrong! "Masquerade" is not half a year after the chandelier crash in the movie, it's only three months after. Right? So she is obviously only three months pregnant in the FL scene, and anyway she loves the Phantom so him raping her wasn't really a rape.

(please spot the sarcasm...)

Anyone who thinks sequel Christine suffers majorly from The Stockholm Syndrome?

Yes. Actually, I'm beginning to think that.

Anyone else hearing that Journey to the Cemetery tune from the 04!Movie in “Beneath a Moonless Sky” and “Why Does She Love Me?" Also Angel of Music at the end of "Beautiful."

ALW really didn't try all that hard, did he?

Viscountess wrote:Anyone else hearing that Journey to the Cemetery tune from the 04!Movie in “Beneath a Moonless Sky” and “Why Does She Love Me?" Also Angel of Music at the end of "Beautiful."

ALW really didn't try all that hard, did he?

I definitely hear it too. I was just telling someone else that after Otto the Wonder Kitty deleted the original score, ALW must have grabbed from here and there to redo what he lost. lol

MasqPhan wrote:
Christine sings, "Once upon another time you went off and left me alone..." Umm. OK. Last time I saw the show, it was Christine who left the Phantom. And she left with Raoul so how was that alone? Or did I see a different show?

Yeah, shame on you Erik for letting Christine go away with the handsome young aristocrat who loved her more than life itself, instead of holding her to an engagement forged by coercion and risking her getting beat up by the angry mob knocking on your doorstep. What on earth were you thinking?

I might have liked "Beauty Underneath" if it were in a different show, or a track on Night Castle. But it just doesn't say "Phantom" to me. BTW, does anyone else think Lloyd Webber is turning the Phantom into a major Marty Stu here? He's suddenly gone from this reclusive half-mad genius hiding out in the cellars nurturing a dark obsession to this successful promoter whose favor everybody wants and Christine decides he's her OTP for no logical reason. Oh, and his romantic rival has become a pathetic broke drunk, how convenient...

I'm not even going to go into psycho!Meg and stage mom!Giry. Mme. Giry has always been one of my favorite characters in the musical--I hate that she's been reduced to this.

As for the "don't judge it till you've seen it" thing, here's the deal: previews are, in essence, advertisements. They exists solely for the purpose of getting you interested in their product, and as such, will attempt to present the product in the most positive light possible. Movie trailers do this all the time--they contain the funniest lines, the coolest action sequences, the most intriguing moments. Ever watched a trailer and thought "God, that was awful--and that's supposed to be the highlights of the movie! How bad is the stuff that didn't make it into the preview?" Same principle here. Even if we haven't seen the whole show, we've seen enough to know it's not promising.

Oh, phantomgirl110, I love the avatar. I want ones that say "Raoul is not drunk" and "Erik is not a date rapist"...

~LCD

LadyCDaae wrote:Oh, phantomgirl110, I love the avatar. I want ones that say "Raoul is not drunk" and "Erik is not a date rapist"...

~LCD

I think her avatars are quite cute and catchy. Mine would say "Phantasma is a Porno, Not an Opera".

ML6 wrote:

LadyCDaae wrote:Oh, phantomgirl110, I love the avatar. I want ones that say "Raoul is not drunk" and "Erik is not a date rapist"...

~LCD

I think her avatars are quite cute and catchy. Mine would say "Phantasma is a Porno, Not an Opera".

Thanks! Feel free to leave other requests, I'll make more when I've got the time.

Sweet. Thanks lady.

My first post on this board. (I was "operaphan" on phansonline, too).

I've been trying to keep a somewhat open mind about Love Never Dies. Tonight, however, I listened to all of the preview song tracks, and I am appalled and in shock. What in the WORLD have they done to the Phantom story?!?!

It sounds like such a horribly written fanfic. I want to wash it from my memory.

Truly, is Meg Giry trying to drown a child at the end of this cast recording?!

I just can't believe that they honestly went through with making Raoul into an abrasive jerk, in debt, and a drunkard. Gustave the b@stard child of E/C?!?! When exactly did THAT happen?!

I'm in total disbelief. I'm glad to know there are others out there who are asking themselves 'wtf' when listening to this new evidence of what LND will be.

Susan (who thank the LORD is seeing the original Phantom numerous times when it comes to Dallas in the next few weeks)

Ok, I just listened to the amazon previews.

I was one that was in favour of the sequel and had high hopes for it. But I also felt the same when the movie was coming out and had to live with the dissapointment that the movie ultimately was and now I am fearing the same will happen with the sequel.

I've always been more interested with the physical attributes of a show so I am hopeing that will be the show's redeeming quality. I have never been much into music, but these clips just rub me the wrong way.

Again I am not musically trained, but neither are the majority of the million pluss people that have seen the original and love it. This sounds way too much like Woman in White and less like phantom. I know I prefer ALW shows that are closer to Phantom (JCS, Joseph, Evita, Cats) shows that are made up of songs punctuated by connective music that is pleasant to listen to and easy to folloy and easy to remember. For me Sunset was his last co-hesive work, and he missed the mark with Aspects (even though that was before Sunset, but remember he was working on Sunset for a long time) Whistle and Woman in White. I just dont get it. The Critics knock him because he wrote "pretty tunes" but it is those pretty tunes that sell and people remember. It's like he is taking on the critics too much. It took me forever to get into Woman in White, I never got into Whistle. I Instantly got into Phantom, Sunset Evita and those earlier ones.

AN example of this is in the Waltz, you have the main body which is a pretty tune, something that sticks woth you, then you get out of no where a chopping up bit that sounds like its froma horror movie then back to the tune, totally out of place, just dropped in like you changed radio stations mid song.

I hate his ensemble numbers, I thought "London" from Woman In White was as bad as he could go, but this seems worse. Look at "Lets Have Lunch" "This TIme Next Year" " Masquerade" "A New Argentina" those were geoub numbers that stuck with you, not irritated you.

I can only hope that when I hear the full numbers that most of them can come out as stand alone numbers (songs)

The only think about this recording so far that I like is the use of the Graveyard music from the film, which was the only part of the movie I liked.

I really don't like Mme Giry's accent, or is it that she has so little time speaking/singing in the first one that we don't really notice it? I dont think so, it was badly noticeable in the film. Yes I picked up that Mary Millar gave it a bit of an accent, but it didnt sound fake. AND THOSE AMERICAN ACCENTS SOUND TERRIBLE.

end of rant, I look forward to seeing the set and costumes, although I am not 100% thrilled with alot of what i have seen of Bob's other shows, granted Poppins and Aira are the only ones that come to mind. I love Aida but that is because I loved the minimilism which can't work for this show. I understood the concept of the charcoal drawings for poppins, but thought it was too colourfull and pretty for my taste.

Seems to me Phantom II is intentionally built up the same was as "the Phantom of the Opera":

ACT 1: seeing the now-deserted place in the Prologue, introduction number for the characters, our first encounter with the Phantom, his MOTN (or here "Till I hear you sing"), play-in-play sequence, confrontation between the Phantom and Christine (but instead of a chandelier, the "disaster beyond imagination" here is the son..... ). A bit more soaring ballads than the original, but pretty much the same layout.

ACT 2: Entr'acte, Raoul opposes the Phantom, intrigues between the main characters, Christine performs the Phantom's work in another play-in-the-play, they confront eachother, and a grand finale where Christine (probably) faces the dilemma of seeing a beloved one die if she makes the "wrong" choice.


This is probably a proper nod to the original and one way of keeping it recognizable although the music is in ALWs later (and to me poorer) style, and the story has major plot holes. But it seems like ALW is sticking to the same formula, just a tad more ballad heavy and less concerned with making the grand "Amadeus numbers":


"The end of the second act, for example - it's a simple duet... just a husband and a wife quarreling.

Suddenly... the wife's scheming little maid comes in. lt's a very funny situation. Duet turns into trio.

The valet enters. He's plotting with the maid. Trio turns into quartet.

Then a gardener comes in. Quartet becomes quintet, and so on and on... sextet, septet, octet.

How long do you think l can sustain that? Many minutes of continuous music. No recitatives! Only opera can do this.

ln a play, if more than one person speaks at once... it's just noise. No one can understand a word.
But with opera, with music.... With music you can have individuals all talking at the same time.

And it's not noise. lt's a perfect harmony!

From the movie Amadeus, which ALW has admitted was of great inspiration to him before he wrote "Phantom of the Opera". I think he tried this out in Notes/Prima Donna, which is a rather bold number for musical theatre, and where people gradually enters throughout the song. In Phantom II he seems more concerned with writing a new MOTN or WYWSHA, it's quite solo ballad heavy isn't it?

the latest vid shows a tiny bit of the stage, or rather the edge of the stage. Obviously there is no special proscenium as with the original, but I was hopeing for something special to be going on around the stage, nothing, just the typical black masking and a bunch of lights. Not even something like boards or something from the carnival, just black masking, how dissapointing. I am begining to think the actors are also being pait to hype up things on these video blogs.

justin-from-barbados wrote: I Instantly got into Phantom, Sunset Evita and those earlier ones.

Funny you should mention those three, because those are IMHO the three best things ALW wrote and they remain three of my all-time favourite shows.

I think I've just had to come to terms that ALW is way past it. But it happens to all composers. Richard Rodgers spent his last few years turning out dreck that no-one cared about; Sondheim's retired but his last show seems destined to remain forever a flop (the problem is that Sondheim CAN retire because he is not so dependent on musicals; ALW by contrast loves them so much he can't do without them and I think he will want to keep writing until the end of his life, for better or worse).

Thing is, I came to terms with this years ago. The newbie tween fans who think ALW can do no wrong forget that RUG's promotion of his hits is relying on an increasingly older back catalogue. It's interesting that ALW still has a reputation for being the man with the midas touch despite not having had a surefire hit since Phantom (Aspects made a small profit in London but flopped on Broadway; Sunset was well-loved and could have run for longer but was produced so expensively that it was doomed never to recoup).

What annoys me is when he potentially ruins the legacy of his *good* works. At the moment it's almost as if ALW is trying to live up to the stereotype of himself perpetuated by his detractors, i.e. all spectacle no substance, throwing money at it to make it look good, recycling tunes, terrible lyrics, awful story idea...etc. This + all this reality TV nonsense, which has GONE WAY TOO FAR (no I DO NOT want to see people audition to be Dorothy and Toto any more than I did want to see them mince about it technicolour dreamcoats) = bad, bad street cred.

Bob Crowley's a great designer, and I loved what he did with Mary Poppins. I couldn't care less about his work for Love Never Dies, there's just not anything else that turns me on about it.

The more I listen to the clips i Do think there may be one or 2 that I could end up liking, it's hard to say and let's face it, if Till I Hear You Sing and Love Never Dies were not performed, we would not really know how those songs go based on these clips.

But I guess I have to keep reminding myself that this is a sequel of the MOVIE and not the stage show as I shudder to think that in another 5 or so years (if this is somewhat successful) ALW will mortgage another 5 houses to turn this into another movie.

I've been lurking in this thread a long time but have finally been spurred to post! My point of view on LND: I've been fundamentally against the idea of a sequel for the reasons that have been outlined here countless times. I can't stand the Forsyth novel and have been desperately clinging to a vague hope that ALW couldn't really be using it that closely other than the setting and it is largely rumour and he surely couldn't undermine the original that way. I never thought the sequel could possibly be *good* because of all the above, but I booked tickets to the first preview due to my hopes that even if the story and characters are awful, then at least the music should be quite good and Ramin and Sierra would deliver fab performances and there might be some value in it somewhere. I also wanted the chance to judge it for myself rather than on second hand information.

Well all my (very very) tenuous hopes were thoroughly dismissed when I listened to those clips! What a pile of dreck! I'm glad at least I've listened to them so I can go into the theatre without any of the faint delusions that ALW really has any care for the characters or story, or has any of his original magic. I'm even really disappointed with Ramin and Sierra there so can't even bank on that! I just can't believe ALW thinks that that is a worthy follow up to one of the most successful productions of all time. It all sounds so disjointed and cobbled together - though I suppose it's hard to judge continuity from 30 second clips. I'm no music expert but some tracks sound faux-Rodgers and Hammerstein-esque, others sound like bad wannabe-rock tunes and others sound like watered down PotO with no interesting melody. Their only common denominator is their mediocrity.

I wanted to throw in my two cents on the "you went off and left me alone, but that's not all you did, you left me with a son" line. Aside from sounding like it was written by a 12 year old, I wonder what this means in terms of plot because there must be more back story to this - they surely can't be so deluded as to think that they can say this in reference to the original ending and the audience will all just vacantly accept it! Are they going to say that she went back to him after PotO, made babies and then he left her? I suppose that's a way to explain the great gaping plot hole of when Gustave was conceived but it sure devalues the ending even more and seriously undermines Raoul and Christine's relationship. And I can't really see the Phantom leaving Christine if she went to him voluntarily! Though if this lyric is just a case of bad writing (because really, nothing else seems to fit in with the original, why bother with a little thing like who left who?!) my alternate theory to try to work that one out is that I don't really think that the Phantom would have had zero contact with Christine in the six months before Masquerade. Ample time for seduction or rape. Though of course there is still the 'joys of the flesh' line to explain with that theory, but I suppose that ALW and team could say he meant it in general terms in that he was denied all his life before Christine? Ugh I don't know, how are you supposed to explain something that doesn't make sense?

justin-from-barbados wrote:But I guess I have to keep reminding myself that this is a sequel of the MOVIE and not the stage show as I shudder to think that in another 5 or so years (if this is somewhat successful) ALW will mortgage another 5 houses to turn this into another movie.

I was already flailing in horror and then I read this! Oh don't say such things! It can't be successful enough to call for a movie, ...surely? To have it immortalized forever rather than as a fleeting ill-conceived production...

I honestly want to know what the original 1986 Creative Team (even Steve Barton's ghost!) thinks of this crap. So much love went into the original production, and the behind the scenes stories - and the fandom! All of that... can you believe that all of that has lead to this? I'd be pretty dissapointed, to figure out that a character I helped create is nothing like how it ends up becoming.

Which has me wonder, do you think they're going to ask Hal Prince to take in some of Love Never Dies into the original? I'm hoping that the show doesn't become some 'curiousity' show and last longer than it should. Because if I see ANYTHING, even down to some young actors playing Raoul and Christine adding LND touches to their performances... lord help me, I'm going to scream.



EDIT: Lord Andy got wiff of the 'leaked samples' on Amazon.co.uk, and so he had Amazon rip them down today. So, if anybody saved them, what you have until March 9th is considered wanted 'gold'. :\

Lucy wrote:Though of course there is still the 'joys of the flesh' line to explain with that theory, but I suppose that ALW and team could say he meant it in general terms in that he was denied all his life before Christine?

But even that theory doesn't make sense, because Christine's phrasing of the question ("Have you gorged yourself at last in your lust for blood? Am I now to be prey to your lust for flesh?") makes it quite clear that she has yet to be prey to his lust thusfar. Not that a little trifle like that will stop ALW from using that argument...

ML6 wrote:Which has me wonder, do you think they're going to ask Hal Prince to take in some of Love Never Dies into the original?

Hal would never agree to it. NEVER. Mark my words.

Has Hal or Gillian ever registered an opinion on the thought of the sequel?

ML6 wrote:Which has me wonder, do you think they're going to ask Hal Prince to take in some of Love Never Dies into the original? I'm hoping that the show doesn't become some 'curiousity' show and last longer than it should. Because if I see ANYTHING, even down to some young actors playing Raoul and Christine adding LND touches to their performances... lord help me, I'm going to scream.

Some of that decision should be Cameron Mackintosh's as well? As the producer of the show I'm sure he has something to say about changes done. I doubt there'll be big changes, but I'm sure some future cast members will have seen Phantom II and having it in mind when performing in the original. That will effect the role interpretation.

As for Amazon removing the preview of the clips, it might indicate that ALW wasn't too happy about it. Seriously, didn't they do exactly the same with the 2004 movie soundtrack?

But it might also have been a PR stunt, to create a buzz...

Has it been mentioned yet that there might be a big fire on stage?

I've read some speculations about it in several blogs and FB sites. Apparently Ramin Karimloo is mentioning fire on stage in one of the video blogs, and there's also something about the ruined fair and an actual fire that happened on Coney Island in 1907. Anyone who knows more about this?

ETA: The Steeplechase fair and fire: http://www.westland.net/coneyisland/articles/steeplechase1.htm

operafantomet wrote:Has it been mentioned yet that there might be a big fire on stage?

I've read some speculations about it in several blogs and FB sites. Apparently Ramin Karimloo is mentioning fire on stage in one of the video blogs, and there's also something about the ruined fair and an actual fire that happened on Coney Island in 1907. Anyone who knows more about this?

I think the only fire on stage will be the phans rushing on stage and burning the set down.

*giggles*

I would burn the score, if I had the chance to, as I'm appalled by the lyrics and music, but as for the visuals I'm sure it'll look cool. At least something I wouldn't burn down.