Love Never Dies - all views allowed

Scorp wrote:

ruthy wrote:I think she is meant to be around 19/20 (well I had perhaps put her around early 20's but the sequel has her being late 20's...) and I think she was 16 in the book? Or am I getting that completely wrong...

Nooooooo, don't believe Joel Schlockmeister. Loads of people seem to think she was 16 in the book because Schumacher says she was to justify his "young and sexy" fetish. She wasn't. Her age is never precisely stated but Leroux says she attended a conservatoire, so 19/20 would be about right.

Not only did she attend, she also graduated from there before the main story takes place. So no way she's 16! I'm thinking somewhere between 19 and 21.

I just cancelled my pre-order for the LND album and will soon be refunded. I feel gooooooood.

If anyone is in the same position and wants to do the same having pre-ordered from the RUG site, you can cancel by either emailing rug@sandbag.uk.com or calling 0118 9569183 (+44 118 9569183 from outside the UK).

I might send that info to LSD so they can post it...

operafantomet wrote:

Scorp wrote:

ruthy wrote:I think she is meant to be around 19/20 (well I had perhaps put her around early 20's but the sequel has her being late 20's...) and I think she was 16 in the book? Or am I getting that completely wrong...

Nooooooo, don't believe Joel Schlockmeister. Loads of people seem to think she was 16 in the book because Schumacher says she was to justify his "young and sexy" fetish. She wasn't. Her age is never precisely stated but Leroux says she attended a conservatoire, so 19/20 would be about right.

Not only did she attend, she also graduated from there before the main story takes place. So no way she's 16! I'm thinking somewhere between 19 and 21.

Not to mention Raoul is twenty, so Christine should be about the same age since they were friends as teens--kids tend to seek out their own age level when it comes to social interactions.

~LCD

Sorry... I haven't read the book in years, and having moved in with my other half i couldn't even have a quick glance at it to determine her age. I took someone elses word for it... teaches me to do that. And yes I just realised Raoul's age should have showed that too... what are your thoughts on the show? Do you think she is older/younger in the show?

ETA: I just saw your post Scorp. Believe me I didn't take it from Joel for a second, as well, I've never read an interview or anything from him for a start ha, and wouldn't trust his judgement at all. I asked someone who I thought knew, and well they clearly didn't

Sorry... I haven't read the book in years, and having moved in with my other half i couldn't even have a quick glance at it to determine her age. I took someone elses word for it... teaches me to do that. And yes I just realised Raoul's age should have showed that too... what are your thoughts on the show? Do you think she is older/younger in the show?

Then I seriously recommend the new English translation by Mireille Ribière. I got a whole new impression of Leroux's story after reading that. The characters are more fleshed out, and there's more coherence. Luv it!

In ALW's stage musical, I've always envisioned her as being between 19 and 23 somewhere. Young, but not necessarily a teenager. Raoul maybe 2-3 years older? I could probably explain why if someone is interested, but I guess that's for another thread.

Yes was considering the new translation so will probably look into that. And I'd be highly interested in that but if it is for another thread we can of course take this discussion to said other thread. I'd like to see your reasoning as we both seem to have similar thoughts on their ages in the stage show.

Scorp wrote:LCD, you've hit the nail on the head and this is what I have been saying since Sunset. Cameron Mackintosh and Tim Rice are both on record as stating that ALW has become a conglomerate and has surrounded him with people who cannot challenge him creatively. That's one of the reasons -- in fact the main reason, according to Mackintosh himself -- why Cammie doesn't want to co-produce with RUG again.

Do you happen to have links to any articles in which those statements are made by Mackintosh and Rice? I'd love to read their thoughts, particularly Cameron's. It's what I've assumed for years, but up until now by main "evidence" has been the differences between the POTO stage show (on which ALW was assisted by Cameron, Hal, Maria, Gillian, etc.) and the movie (on which he wasn't, and look what happened).

I saw this and giggled. Just a little.



had to post it. sorry if it's been posted before.

ha, The "Lyrics and Book by FanFiction.net made me giggle. It's funny 'cause it's sad.

I noticed in one of the latest LND blogs that it says Sierra had to have her head encased in plaster. More evidence of the dreaded Christine "love doll"?

LND Blog

Gustave's blog...well, one of them.

http://www.broadwayworld.com/article/LOVE_NEVER_DIES_Blog_Gustaves_Blog_20100116

because, frankly, some phrases in that "blog" sound like they were written by the PR team and not a 12-year old boy...

Woah they have SIX boys? Anyway, I would assume he perhaps just said how he felt to someone and then a member of PR wrote it up.

ETA: The next person to say it is better than the original I will hit (perhaps not if it is another of the 12 year old boys...)

Wow, six boys to share the role? That sounds like quite a lot to me

MasqPhan wrote:I noticed in one of the latest LND blogs that it says Sierra had to have her head encased in plaster. More evidence of the dreaded Christine "love doll"?

LND Blog

It's funny, I had a dream about this little 'tidbit' the other night. Though, for some reason, I dreamt that Christine became deformed as well and she had to get a mask made for her. Though, bear in mind, this specific dream had the 'opening night' of LND in Hungary and Scorp and I were trying to get the original cast and I to see it. (And the Raoul sounded like a bad Steve Barton impersonator.) :\

But all funny business aside, I don't want to see the Phantom do a 'replica' onstage. Because, I rather not know that's happening. It's crude and I doubt the audience would want to see that... Wait, half the people who want to see it are wanting some hard core rekindled action between Phantom and Christine. So, I take that back for their sake.

Then another dream I had, regarding the doll: The song "Till I Hear You Sing Once More" is when the doll appears onstage. I'm not betting on it, but otherwise, why was Sierra sitting on the stage very, very still? Could be just for show, true. But I had a dream that the doll was included during or after that song. And the more I thought about it, the more I thought it made sense. In a sick way, of course.

ML6 wrote:Wait, half the people who want to see it are wanting some hard core rekindled action between Phantom and Christine.

That is so true. Sure, there are exceptions, but in my observation, an awful lot of the pro-sequel fans are people who want the Phantom and Christine to get physically intimate so badly that you'd think their own lives depend on it.

Paula74 wrote:

ML6 wrote:Wait, half the people who want to see it are wanting some hard core rekindled action between Phantom and Christine.

That is so true. Sure, there are exceptions, but in my observation, an awful lot of the pro-sequel fans are people who want the Phantom and Christine to get physically intimate so badly that you'd think their own lives depend on it.

I know. The could give a sh!t about the story, let alone the bastardizing of the characters. All what I hear from everyone is: Christine + Erik = TRUE LOVE. The fact that Raoul has always been blacklisted, but even more since the 'direction' Joel Schumacher went with his character (and now with his sudden urge to drink!), it makes me so angry. More angry than the musical in general. Mainly because I'm so passionate for Raoul and Christine that I protect their love like they were friends or children of mine. I feel that no matter what happens, he'll never, ever get a break. Hal Prince seemed to be the only person that cared about Raoul's character.

ML6 wrote:
I know. The could give a sh!t about the story, let alone the bastardizing of the characters. All what I hear from everyone is: Christine + Erik = TRUE LOVE. The fact that Raoul has always been blacklisted, but even more since the 'direction' Joel Schumacher went with his character (and now with his sudden urge to drink!), it makes me so angry. More angry than the musical in general. Mainly because I'm so passionate for Raoul and Christine that I protect their love like they were friends or children of mine. I feel that no matter what happens, he'll never, ever get a break. Hal Prince seemed to be the only person that cared about Raoul's character.

I did start out as a rabid fan girl (OMGZ GERRY IS SO HAWT.) and I hated Raoul for no apparent reason other than the simple fact that everyone else hated him but, having gotten to know the musical better I do care for Raoul's character a LOT more now, and I'd honestly hate to see him as the traditional abandoned sort of character. I do love Erik and Christine's chemistry however, I don't think LND is going to do much justice to Raoul's character, but in fact, further blacklist him. Which really, is just disappointing. I'm interested to see what Raoul is included in musically, part of me thinks that he might end up with the short end of the stick but, I'm not familiar with the guy casted in Raoul's part, so I don't know if that hints do anything in terms of the actor being a powerhouse sort of actor or what have you.

On the topic of 6 boys playing Gustave, is that all just for the London production or for the various productions ALW hopes on opening?

Christine's Shadow wrote:On the topic of 6 boys playing Gustave, is that all just for the London production or for the various productions ALW hopes on opening?

It's gotta just be for London, since that's the only production they're planning for now and the only one that's been cast. The original plan to open simultaneously in London, NY, and an Asian location has been scrapped, and planning for a Broadway transfer, while unfortunately probably inevitable, is a little premature.

Paula74 wrote:

ML6 wrote:Wait, half the people who want to see it are wanting some hard core rekindled action between Phantom and Christine.

That is so true. Sure, there are exceptions, but in my observation, an awful lot of the pro-sequel fans are people who want the Phantom and Christine to get physically intimate so badly that you'd think their own lives depend on it.

Ha-ha-ha! That comment made me giggle!

And back to logic for a second, when would the Phantom and Christine have the possibility to... eh, consummate their love? The Final Lair lyrics gives two clues on them not having done it:

CHRISTINE: "Am I now to be prey to your lust for flesh?"
PHANTOM: "That fate, which condemns me to wallow in blood, has also denied me the joys of the flesh..."

As I see it, this means nothing amorous has happened between the kidnapping and the Final Lair scene. If something did indeed happen, I don't think he would react like he did when Christine kissed him...

And afterwards, Christine leaves with Raoul. What LND implies is that the Music of the Night WASN'T over, the Phantom apparently kept stalking Christine, or she went back to him to have sex. Enters Gustave. Eh??

I just don't see it happening...

I think there's more chance Christine and Raoul did the deed at some point during the musical than The Phantom and Christine. Some Raoul's in the boat in the end... certainly get up close hehe.

Anyway, in all seriousness it has been rehashed a thousand times The Phantom and Christine did not and could not have had sex. And also I care for Raoul's character a lot (moreso because I have seen some fantastic interpretations lately; there are a few who just annoyed me) and I think it is one thing to make him an alcoholic but to repeatedly call him a "boring" character is uncalled for and I think insulting to anyone to have played Raoul!

operafantomet wrote:

Paula74 wrote:

ML6 wrote:Wait, half the people who want to see it are wanting some hard core rekindled action between Phantom and Christine.

That is so true. Sure, there are exceptions, but in my observation, an awful lot of the pro-sequel fans are people who want the Phantom and Christine to get physically intimate so badly that you'd think their own lives depend on it.

Ha-ha-ha! That comment made me giggle!

And back to logic for a second, when would the Phantom and Christine have the possibility to... eh, consummate their love? The Final Lair lyrics gives two clues on them not having done it:

CHRISTINE: "Am I now to be prey to your lust for flesh?"
PHANTOM: "That fate, which condemns me to wallow in blood, has also denied me the joys of the flesh..."

As I see it, this means nothing amorous has happened between the kidnapping and the Final Lair scene. If something did indeed happen, I don't think he would react like he did when Christine kissed him...

And afterwards, Christine leaves with Raoul. What LND implies is that the Music of the Night WASN'T over, the Phantom apparently kept stalking Christine, or she went back to him to have sex. Enters Gustave. Eh??

I just don't see it happening...

Seriously, I've encountered people who, while discussing the Phantom's lack of sex...er...love...er...sex...er...sexyloving with Christine say that they are "overcome with unbearable grief just thinking about it." And, yes, they mean really mean it.

And I've actually encountered people who, when confronted with the "denied me the joys of the flesh" line, insist that, "Well, they did it...but since Christine was in a trance, it doesn't count."

You know, if Christine and Erik DID hook up, then the story ends. Where is the mystery, the longing, the speculation, the grounds for lurid fan-fiction? It's like Gone With the Wind--the ending leaves you hanging, lets your imagination work, keeps the story alive. "Happily Ever After" endings can be satisfying, but they also complete the story. Part of PotO's appeal for all these years IS the dangling ending, the unrequited love, the "but what if" speculation. I hate to see that messed up with a rotten sequel that damages the timeline, alters the characters, and ruins that fun speculation.

Christine's Shadow wrote:

ML6 wrote:
I know. The could give a sh!t about the story, let alone the bastardizing of the characters. All what I hear from everyone is: Christine + Erik = TRUE LOVE. The fact that Raoul has always been blacklisted, but even more since the 'direction' Joel Schumacher went with his character (and now with his sudden urge to drink!), it makes me so angry. More angry than the musical in general. Mainly because I'm so passionate for Raoul and Christine that I protect their love like they were friends or children of mine. I feel that no matter what happens, he'll never, ever get a break. Hal Prince seemed to be the only person that cared about Raoul's character.

I did start out as a rabid fan girl (OMGZ GERRY IS SO HAWT.) and I hated Raoul for no apparent reason other than the simple fact that everyone else hated him but, having gotten to know the musical better I do care for Raoul's character a LOT more now, and I'd honestly hate to see him as the traditional abandoned sort of character. I do love Erik and Christine's chemistry however, I don't think LND is going to do much justice to Raoul's character, but in fact, further blacklist him. Which really, is just disappointing. I'm interested to see what Raoul is included in musically, part of me thinks that he might end up with the short end of the stick but, I'm not familiar with the guy casted in Raoul's part, so I don't know if that hints do anything in terms of the actor being a powerhouse sort of actor or what have you.

ruthy wrote:Anyway, in all seriousness it has been rehashed a thousand times The Phantom and Christine did not and could not have had sex. And also I care for Raoul's character a lot (moreso because I have seen some fantastic interpretations lately; there are a few who just annoyed me) and I think it is one thing to make him an alcoholic but to repeatedly call him a "boring" character is uncalled for and I think insulting to anyone to have played Raoul!

I'm glad I was directed to this site, because the fact that I found some people who care about Raoul's character (like me) makes me happy. I do think that Ramin and Sierra are pretty brave into taking the parts after they did the original show. I know someone people liked the film, but the fact that a lot of the actors didn't like the movie who played the roles earlier kind of shows how they feel if a sequel was made. I do think that a lot of people who have played Raoul will be feeling a little upset that the future of the character becomes an alcoholic idiot. I mean, he is in a sense seen as a secondary character, but a LOT of people who play Raoul don't give to the part just because of that. Just think how a lot of people will be now with the sequel. "Oh! Raoul becomes an alcoholic, you say? Well then, I'm going to have to rechange the way I think he should be done and lean towards the beginnings of him turning to that form of 'entertainment'." or "Well, I'm not going to give him my all because, well, who wants to care for an alcoholic?" Now, it might not be like that, but that's seriously what I think will come to mind with a few people. Back in the 80's, when the musical was fresh, and Hal Prince still was directing versions that had yet to be played, of course everyone who played Raoul was under the assumption that Raoul was just as important as the Phantom. But that was almost 25 years ago... people are changing, especially their views on how they (and the audience) sees the character.

I agree it is lovely to have people around who at least care for Raoul's character. A lot of people I know are almost blinded by The Phantom apparently being "sexy" (personally I've never understood this viewpoint) that they see Raoul as the enemy. In a normal society I wouldn't expect people would be hating the person trying to protect Christine and rooting for someone who has in fact murdered people. I can see how The Phantom is alluring but I just don't get the whole "sexy" aspect people seem to talk about. Now to appreciate Raoul's character does not mean you have to then slate The Phantom's character. I like both, I just don't like the viewpoint that Love Phantom = Hate Raoul.

Anyway this is really off topic I apologise. Perhaps we should have a Raoul thread other than the Favourite Raouls one.

ruthy wrote:Anyway this is really off topic I apologise. Perhaps we should have a Raoul thread other than the Favourite Raouls one.

Neeeh, it's room for discussing WHAT makes a great Raoul, as well as who...

ruthy wrote:Anyway this is really off topic I apologise. Perhaps we should have a Raoul thread other than the Favourite Raouls one.

Oh no! I don't think it's offtopic at all. Raoul is a character, and his 'alcoholism' is apparently a key point in this 'new story'. I think those who speak in this topic (perhaps not Raoul centered) would agree. It's just a huge 180 from his previous role in the original that it's a complete wonder of why they'd make him like this.

But a Raoul Appreication topic is not a bad idea, either.

Paula74 wrote:And I've actually encountered people who, when confronted with the "denied me the joys of the flesh" line, insist that, "Well, they did it...but since Christine was in a trance, it doesn't count."

So by their logic date rape doesn't count either?

To go off of what someone said earlier about fans who think it's a tragedy that Erik never had sexytime with Christine, I've also heard from some fans who believe lament this because they felt that Erik was quite, ah, enormously gifted ... and that this makes his virginal status upon death all the more tragic.

Someone have any aspirin?

Anyhow, I don't think I ever truly hated Raoul. In fact, I almost pity him as much as I pity the Phantom. He has to live knowing that the woman he loves will always love another. And not just any other; a deformed, insane, homicidal kidnapper who very nearly killed Raoul when he tried to rescue Christine. And yet, it seems that he is ready to endure this, because he loves her that much. As much as one can mock Raoul for his youth, his title, and his good looks, one cannot forget or ignore that he risked his life for her and did his best to try and convince her to run away with him from what any reasonable, caring husband would perceive to be a dangerous situation. It is an extreme disservice to his character to reduce him to an emasculated, drunken wreck.

~Madame~

Becky wrote:

Paula74 wrote:And I've actually encountered people who, when confronted with the "denied me the joys of the flesh" line, insist that, "Well, they did it...but since Christine was in a trance, it doesn't count."

So by their logic date rape doesn't count either?

See, that's my thing--any sexual encounter between Christine and Erik during the course of the narrative proper would have connotations of rape to it, and I've never thought that to be a piece of his character (I like to think it's because Erik does have some moral standards, although it could simply be that he just doesn't find the concept arousing). Otherwise, why go through the whole Scarpia Ultimatum in the first place? He certainly doesn't lack for opportunities to take advantage of Christine if that's what he really wanted.

And I'm sorry, but there's no way you can convince me Christine is pregnant post-MotN, even if one assumes the three-month break between acts in the movie (which I don't anyway). It is very hard to function normally throughout the first trimester of pregnancy--you're tired and have mood swings and headaches and just about anything more complex than toast makes you throw up. Besides, I think someone would have caught on (at least two of my co-workers figured out my "condition" weeks before I made it public).

~LCD

Madame Giry wrote:

Anyhow, I don't think I ever truly hated Raoul. In fact, I almost pity him as much as I pity the Phantom. He has to live knowing that the woman he loves will always love another. And not just any other; a deformed, insane, homicidal kidnapper who very nearly killed Raoul when he tried to rescue Christine. And yet, it seems that he is ready to endure this, because he loves her that much. As much as one can mock Raoul for his youth, his title, and his good looks, one cannot forget or ignore that he risked his life for her and did his best to try and convince her to run away with him from what any reasonable, caring husband would perceive to be a dangerous situation. It is an extreme disservice to his character to reduce him to an emasculated, drunken wreck.

~Madame~

Yes. Perfectly said. That's EXACTLY how I feel, to a T. Awesome, just simply awesome.