Phantom of Manhattan (spoilers)

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Re: Phantom of Manhattan (spoilers)

Post  Vicomtesse de Chagny on Thu Jul 01, 2010 11:10 pm

*whispers* You know what guys? *shakes head in disbelief, then carries on in a stronger voice* I don't hate PoM anymore. Oh, I certainly think it has its flaws still (I assume I don't have to mention what they are...) but compared to LND this is practically a work of PotO related art.

For one (and the main!) thing, the characters are much more believable in this than they are in LND.

Erik:
He still has feelings for Christine, but he's not obsessive like Mr. Y, and even he questions his decision to invite Christine over. Then there's the whole Coney Island business... Like many others I wasn't happy with him dressing as a clown, but considering it's something he does in order to make enough money to build an opera house and not an amusement park I'm willing to overlook it. Plus the paragraph where he talks about the kids smiling at him is rather cute...

Christine:
Happily married to Raoul and is using his name. I definitely love that. The only thing that bugs me is how Mary-Sue she is. Come on, the entire city gathers to meet her at the pier, including those not interested in opera or don't even know who she is? Seriously!

Raoul:
The first times I read it I was annoyed at how dumb and pretty much useless he's made out to be. His wife speaks just about every language fluently and he doesn't know anything? I'm not buying that. And he doesn't even do anything until the very end! But besides that (and a certain incident) I feel he's been treated a lot better by Forsythe than he has by so many others. Even his, eh, «incident» sets him in a better light as he then is the noble husband raising a child he knows isn't his and that he loves just as if it had been his own. (I just wish Mme Giry hadn't given so many details.) But from beginning till the very end Forsythe acknowledges the love he and his wife have for each other.

The ending:
Ah, well... I don't like Christine dying, but I much prefer her getting hit by the bullet in hugging Pierre than Mr. Y being an ass. However, whereas Gustave had at least met Mr. Y (and been scared out of his wits... but apparently in the eyes of ALW and Co being terrified means true love... What a great message to give people, not! face palm. But I digress.) Ok, so I see the point in a little miracle giving Erik some happiness and I do find it kinda sweet, but I'm not entirely happy with how it happened. Couldn't Pierre rather go with Raoul and stay with him, perhaps while trying to get to know Erik, and then make a decision? At the very least I think the man who raised him deserves a proper goodbye.

I'm not sure if that last passage came off as mostly negative or positive, but I guess what I'm trying to say I that I kind of like what happened, but not how it happened. And I will give the author kudos for introducing the gun early on in the story without it being too dramatic/foreshadowing or in the reader's face.


So there you have it. My unexpected defence speech in favour of PoM.

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Re: Phantom of Manhattan (spoilers)

Post  operafantomet on Mon Jul 05, 2010 10:47 am

Vicomtesse de Chagny wrote:*whispers* You know what guys? *shakes head in disbelief, then carries on in a stronger voice* I don't hate PoM anymore. Oh, I certainly think it has its flaws still (I assume I don't have to mention what they are...) but compared to LND this is practically a work of PotO related art.
Although I'm not overly enthusiastic about the book, I totally agree. It is Nobel material compared to LND.

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Re: Phantom of Manhattan (spoilers)

Post  IamErik771 on Mon Jul 26, 2010 5:31 pm

Heh... I went to my local public library the other day and discovered, much to my amusement and horror, that they have a copy of this... thing. I do tend to agree with the sentiment that in terms of plot and characters, it's not nearly as bad as a certain musical sequel playing on the West End... but for me, it's the outright bashing of Leroux's novel in the introduction that puts it over the top. I'm not sure if Forsyth was trying to be funny or what; surely he understands that the Leroux version is in the 'fiction' section for a reason, and that it's rather impossible for an author to get his own creations wrong? Rolling Eyes

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Re: Phantom of Manhattan (spoilers)

Post  ChristineDaae1982 on Sun Oct 17, 2010 11:02 pm

Is it just me...

Or did anyone find this a rather hard read?

I am a rather avid novel reader, especially when it comes to the subject of "The Phantom/ Erik..." I am due to read Leroux's novel once again... (I am currently in the midst of reading/ revisiting Kay's most beautifully written novel)!

Call me stark raving mad... but this one with it's quidessential plot-point of Erik as being a stock broker on Wall Street?!

Perhaps it's rather much time that I've revisited it... in seeing as though I've read mearly everything else "Phantom" oriented!

Anyone have a copy out there that I can either read/ borrow (and with borrowing, I'd most gladly return it... PM me for my address... that is if one of you do so find this that recommended "POTO reading material")!

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Re: Phantom of Manhattan (spoilers)

Post  Devon on Mon Oct 03, 2011 1:41 pm

I read this book long before Sir Andrew created LND. I remember not liking it because one, it takes place on Coney Island and I'm sorry, that location just didn't do anything for me. Phantom is set in Paris and I think it should have stayed there. Also, I'm a little fuzzy here but I remember that the character of Raoul was a big jerk. Now I know that there are some people who don't like Raoul because of the love triangle between him, Christine, and the Phantom but I don't think it was necessary to write his character the way it was in this book. Also the fact that Christine and the Phantom created a love child! Whoa....the story of the Phantom is about unrequited love, not a roll in the hay and Christine giving birth to a son, then in turn shunning the Phantom and letting Raoul raise it as his own! Last but not least, she dies at the end...what the...???! That enraged me.

All in all, I did not like the book for all of these reasons but at least I can say I've read some good sequels, this book just didn't do anything for me. As against the sequel as I am I can totally overlook a sequel but I just wish ALW would have picked a different story for LND!!

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Re: Phantom of Manhattan (spoilers)

Post  operafantomet on Mon Oct 03, 2011 2:52 pm

Devon wrote:All in all, I did not like the book for all of these reasons but at least I can say I've read some good sequels, this book just didn't do anything for me. As against the sequel as I am I can totally overlook a sequel but I just wish ALW would have picked a different story for LND!!
Remember though, that the POM book is based on thoughts ALW pitched for Frederick Forsyth. It's not as much ALW using the book as a basis for the musical, as it is the book being the first draft of what ALW wanted for the musical.

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Re: Phantom of Manhattan (spoilers)

Post  Raphael on Tue Oct 04, 2011 1:18 am

operafantomet wrote:
Remember though, that the POM book is based on thoughts ALW pitched for Frederick Forsyth. It's not as much ALW using the book as a basis for the musical, as it is the book being the first draft of what ALW wanted for the musical.
Exactly. I'm amazed that so few people remember that.

Oh, and as for Raoul, he was barely in the book. He was emasculated in the first chapter, doesn't speak English, and is mostly off taking care of business matters and doesn't really appear in the narrative proper until the very end.

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Re: Phantom of Manhattan (spoilers)

Post  Devon on Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:26 am

operafantomet wrote:
Devon wrote:All in all, I did not like the book for all of these reasons but at least I can say I've read some good sequels, this book just didn't do anything for me. As against the sequel as I am I can totally overlook a sequel but I just wish ALW would have picked a different story for LND!!
Remember though, that the POM book is based on thoughts ALW pitched for Frederick Forsyth. It's not as much ALW using the book as a basis for the musical, as it is the book being the first draft of what ALW wanted for the musical.

Oh that's right...I heard of that awhile back and forget about it! Ugh...can't believe ALW pitched this story to the author....wtf??

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Re: Phantom of Manhattan (spoilers)

Post  Blaidd_Drwg on Tue Oct 18, 2011 1:48 pm

operafantomet wrote:
Devon wrote:All in all, I did not like the book for all of these reasons but at least I can say I've read some good sequels, this book just didn't do anything for me. As against the sequel as I am I can totally overlook a sequel but I just wish ALW would have picked a different story for LND!!
Remember though, that the POM book is based on thoughts ALW pitched for Frederick Forsyth. It's not as much ALW using the book as a basis for the musical, as it is the book being the first draft of what ALW wanted for the musical.

You're kidding me, right? I NEVER knew that that was the case. Wow, sometimes I wonder what must go through ALW's head. He seems to make continuously bad decisions when it comes to Phantom...

I read the book when I was about fourteen after having discovered Phantom and Phantomfans.net, and I don't really remember much except for Erik dressed as a clown, Madame Giry's opening narrative, and a very vague idea of what happens at the end. I also remember feeling distinctly angry that this was a book that existed. Ah well...

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Re: Phantom of Manhattan (spoilers)

Post  Raphael on Tue Oct 18, 2011 7:53 pm

The_Oncoming_Storm wrote:
operafantomet wrote:
Devon wrote:All in all, I did not like the book for all of these reasons but at least I can say I've read some good sequels, this book just didn't do anything for me. As against the sequel as I am I can totally overlook a sequel but I just wish ALW would have picked a different story for LND!!
Remember though, that the POM book is based on thoughts ALW pitched for Frederick Forsyth. It's not as much ALW using the book as a basis for the musical, as it is the book being the first draft of what ALW wanted for the musical.

You're kidding me, right? I NEVER knew that that was the case. Wow, sometimes I wonder what must go through ALW's head. He seems to make continuously bad decisions when it comes to Phantom...
Yup, and it got blasted so badly upon its release that all talk of a Phantom sequel suddenly dried up soon afterwards (even DVDs of the ALW 50th Birthday celebration at Royal Albert Hall edited out his talk of how "The Heart is Slow to Learn" was written for Phantom 2).

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Re: Phantom of Manhattan (spoilers)

Post  Blaidd_Drwg on Wed Oct 19, 2011 3:08 pm

Raphael wrote:
The_Oncoming_Storm wrote:
operafantomet wrote:
Devon wrote:All in all, I did not like the book for all of these reasons but at least I can say I've read some good sequels, this book just didn't do anything for me. As against the sequel as I am I can totally overlook a sequel but I just wish ALW would have picked a different story for LND!!
Remember though, that the POM book is based on thoughts ALW pitched for Frederick Forsyth. It's not as much ALW using the book as a basis for the musical, as it is the book being the first draft of what ALW wanted for the musical.

You're kidding me, right? I NEVER knew that that was the case. Wow, sometimes I wonder what must go through ALW's head. He seems to make continuously bad decisions when it comes to Phantom...
Yup, and it got blasted so badly upon its release that all talk of a Phantom sequel suddenly dried up soon afterwards (even DVDs of the ALW 50th Birthday celebration at Royal Albert Hall edited out his talk of how "The Heart is Slow to Learn" was written for Phantom 2).

TAFKaR

You're talking about the book, right? Yeah, you learn something new everyday. I haven't read anything by Forsyth, but I've seen his books in many different places and he doesn't seem like the type that would write Phantom of Manhattan. I suppose I can believe that ALW commissioned him to write it in that case.

I just don't understand why, if just the idea of it got blasted so badly, he would go ahead and make it anyway. I suppose I can't even begin to fathom what goes on in his mind, but it seems like really poor decision making. Especially to spend so much money on a show just to have it flop not even a year later.

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Re: Phantom of Manhattan (spoilers)

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