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Love Never Dies - all views allowed

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Post  SenorSwanky Thu Oct 08, 2009 3:51 pm

EarlFan wrote:
Paula74 wrote:From my experience, most of this supposed need for a fulfilling resolution came about after the gaudy bodice-ripper movie

It feels to me like the sequel is something for the movie fans, but not the "real" fans of the stage show. To me, the ending in the stage show tells us that the Phantom dies. I felt that this was that happened even the first time I saw it, by that time I had never read the book or even heard about The Phantom of The Opera. I hated the ending in the movie because there we were told that the Phantom was still alive.
I don't think the Phantom necessarily dies right away, and I don't mind the idea that he would still be around to place a rose and the ring on her grave years later, but we at least know he basically gives up on life and retreats into solitude. And this whole sequel plot spits in the face of that, deciding what happens next instead of leaving it to the audience's imagination. It's part of why I hate fanfic, and it's a similar feeling to when Marvel decided to tell a definitive, stupid version of Wolverine's origin (subsequently done terribly in the recent Origins movie).

Also, amen to what Anea and Paula have said about the mystery and tragedy of the ending.


Last edited by SenorSwanky on Thu Oct 08, 2009 3:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post  LadyCDaae Thu Oct 08, 2009 3:54 pm

Paula74 wrote:
EarlFan wrote:
Paula74 wrote:From my experience, most of this supposed need for a fulfilling resolution came about after the gaudy bodice-ripper movie

It feels to me like the sequel is something for the movie fans, but not the "real" fans of the stage show. To me, the ending in the stage show tells us that the Phantom dies. I felt that this was that happened even the first time I saw it, by that time I had never read the book or even heard about The Phantom of The Opera. I hated the ending in the movie because there we were told that the Phantom was still alive.

Saying anything about the ending being boring is just ridiculous!

Why does everything need to have a sweet, shiny, perfect Disney happy ending? Not to mention, Phantom has a happy ending...for Christine and Raoul, that is. Just because The Phantom is the more popular and, despite his misdeeds, generally more sympathetic character doesn't mean he has to "get the girl and ride off into the sunset and live happily ever after.

I love the finality of the stage ending...the sad irony that, in the end, there is nothing left but his mask.

I think in a strange way the original ending is a happy one for Erik as well (he even says as much in Leroux!). Because at that moment, he finally gets it right. He has that taste of understanding and compassion that he's lacked his entire life, and because of it his love for Christine ultimately overpowers his own desire to possess her and prompts him to do the honorable thing. The final orchestral reprise of MotN is sad, but at the same way almost triumphant--there is a sense of completion, and of an absolute rightness in that completion. And when you have that, what need is there to continue the story?

Missed the song (any linkage), but those lyrics...parts of them sound like the sort of things I wrote as a lovesick teenager. The waltz is pretty much what I call "Generic Lloyd Webber" (see also: "Learn to Lonely," anything in Woman in White that isn't "Lammastide" or a Fosco solo)--nice but not particularly spectacular, nothing that grips the spirit like "Heaven on Their Minds," the Jellicle Ball, or the PotO overture.

~LCD

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Post  Mandrake Thu Oct 08, 2009 4:20 pm

I literally couldn't believe ALW's "unsatisfactory ending" comment, even if he was quoting someone else. He obviously approved of it, in any case.

I mean, he's clearly not a stupid guy. It's simply not credible that he could be ignorant of the fact that it's the ending which makes the whole show. To be honest, I don't even see Phantom as a love story- for me the ending, his redemption, is what the original show is entirely about.

The only possibility in my mind is that he's using this as his rationale or justification (or excuse) for creating the unnecessary sequel. I always believed what it was really about was his trying to recapture the perceived genius and adoration of his early career and I can have some sympathy with that desire; but I so wish he'd picked a different vehicle.

My biggest fear is that seeing the sequel will pollute my perception of the original, corrupt it and make it impure so that I can never enjoy it in quite the same way ever again, knowing that it ultimately descends into the folly of LND. If you're suspending disbelief then you have to simultaneously believe in the vision of the creator of the secondary world and I don't think I could divorce LND (having seen it) from the original and pretend it never happened. It'd be like having seen the film of the book; all the characters now have new voices and faces, not necessarily to their advantage.

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Post  EarlFan Thu Oct 08, 2009 4:52 pm

Mandrake wrote:I literally couldn't believe ALW's "unsatisfactory ending" comment, even if he was quoting someone else. He obviously approved of it, in any case.

I mean, he's clearly not a stupid guy. It's simply not credible that he could be ignorant of the fact that it's the ending which makes the whole show. To be honest, I don't even see Phantom as a love story- for me the ending, his redemption, is what the original show is entirely about.

The only possibility in my mind is that he's using this as his rationale or justification (or excuse) for creating the unnecessary sequel. I always believed what it was really about was his trying to recapture the perceived genius and adoration of his early career and I can have some sympathy with that desire; but I so wish he'd picked a different vehicle.

My biggest fear is that seeing the sequel will pollute my perception of the original, corrupt it and make it impure so that I can never enjoy it in quite the same way ever again, knowing that it ultimately descends into the folly of LND. If you're suspending disbelief then you have to simultaneously believe in the vision of the creator of the secondary world and I don't think I could divorce LND (having seen it) from the original and pretend it never happened. It'd be like having seen the film of the book; all the characters now have new voices and faces, not necessarily to their advantage.

Well said.
If I decide to go and see LND I will try to keep an open mind. But I fear that after seeing it I will walk out of the theatre feeling nothing else than hate and disappointment. I believe I still would love Phantom but there would be this strange feeling that something has changed, some of the romance and the mystique about the Phantom would be gone. I wished that someone had stopped ALW from doing this, I'm sure he could come up with some other exciting projects if it's a challenge he wants. But now it's too late.
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Post  Christine's Shadow Thu Oct 08, 2009 5:15 pm

I think I agree with a lot of the comments. I'm not crazy about the music, it sounds like it belongs in a movie, not onstage. *Shrug* The ending of Phantom was meant to leave a sense of wonderment/puzzlement, etc. and that's what Hal Prince meant to have happened. Someone needs to lock Hal and Andrew in a room and see which comes out with their head still on their shoulders. ($5 on Hal, taking other bets here.)
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Post  tiawhitecat Thu Oct 08, 2009 5:34 pm

Mandrake wrote:I literally couldn't believe ALW's "unsatisfactory ending" comment, even if he was quoting someone else. He obviously approved of it, in any case.

I mean, he's clearly not a stupid guy. It's simply not credible that he could be ignorant of the fact that it's the ending which makes the whole show. To be honest, I don't even see Phantom as a love story- for me the ending, his redemption, is what the original show is entirely about.

The only possibility in my mind is that he's using this as his rationale or justification (or excuse) for creating the unnecessary sequel. I always believed what it was really about was his trying to recapture the perceived genius and adoration of his early career and I can have some sympathy with that desire; but I so wish he'd picked a different vehicle.

I completely agree, until the 'unsatisfactory ending' comment I'd just come round to giving LND the benefit of the doubt, after that all the video did was make me want to go see the original again. As for casting Ramin, I know he'll be in makeup, but he looks so young (well he does to me, maybe I'm hung up on age at the moment), I remember the first time I saw John Owen Jones, I was sitting in about the 3rd row of the stalls and I thought he looked too young then, to fit in with having 2 Phantoms in town they'll need one at Her Majesty's who's about 18 Laughing

ALW also said something mean about Raoul, mind you I agree Raoul is a bit boring but you don't expect him to say it.
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Post  Mandrake Thu Oct 08, 2009 5:58 pm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/8297371.stm

BBC report on the launch, including an interview with ALW...

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Post  carlottawannabe Thu Oct 08, 2009 6:02 pm

Ok, I was at the launch today and thought the whole thing was just brilliant! I am sick to death of all your negetive comments in this thread about Love Never dies. I was there and loved the song, as did my fellow "phans" that were lucky to have been there. I really don not agree with ANYTHING you people say on here and have had enough...I hope that Love never dies does really well (ive heard already that most seats are already gone) and runs for a long time so it will shut the lot of you up and prove you wrong...Some of your comments are just wrong and just rude...Im sick of it and will not be posting in any Phantom forums ever again now...goodbye..you have just lost yourself a forum member...I really dont think any of you are true "fans" of the show...
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Post  Cape Twirl of Doom Thu Oct 08, 2009 6:15 pm

LOL
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Post  Phantomlove Thu Oct 08, 2009 6:19 pm

carlottawannabe wrote:Ok, I was at the launch today and thought the whole thing was just brilliant! I am sick to death of all your negetive comments in this thread about Love Never dies. I was there and loved the song, as did my fellow "phans" that were lucky to have been there. I really don not agree with ANYTHING you people say on here and have had enough...I hope that Love never dies does really well (ive heard already that most seats are already gone) and runs for a long time so it will shut the lot of you up and prove you wrong...Some of your comments are just wrong and just rude...Im sick of it and will not be posting in any Phantom forums ever again now...goodbye..you have just lost yourself a forum member...I really dont think any of you are true "fans" of the show...

Give it a break. We saw the thing on the Internet, we also heard the songs and some of us thought they were bad. Live with it, that is life.

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Post  LadyCDaae Thu Oct 08, 2009 6:27 pm

Rolling Eyes I suppose that was inevitable...still, nothing to the Great Movie Flame Wars of 2005.

~LCD

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Post  Guest Thu Oct 08, 2009 6:29 pm

carlottawannabe wrote:Ok, I was at the launch today and thought the whole thing was just brilliant! I am sick to death of all your negetive comments in this thread about Love Never dies. I was there and loved the song, as did my fellow "phans" that were lucky to have been there. I really don not agree with ANYTHING you people say on here and have had enough...I hope that Love never dies does really well (ive heard already that most seats are already gone) and runs for a long time so it will shut the lot of you up and prove you wrong...Some of your comments are just wrong and just rude...Im sick of it and will not be posting in any Phantom forums ever again now...goodbye..you have just lost yourself a forum member...I really dont think any of you are true "fans" of the show...

Wow.... For real? Suspect scratch I always thought I was a "true fan".... Crying or Very sad

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Post  fondestgreeting Thu Oct 08, 2009 6:31 pm

phantomfett wrote:
carlottawannabe wrote:Ok, I was at the launch today and thought the whole thing was just brilliant! I am sick to death of all your negetive comments in this thread about Love Never dies. I was there and loved the song, as did my fellow "phans" that were lucky to have been there. I really don not agree with ANYTHING you people say on here and have had enough...I hope that Love never dies does really well (ive heard already that most seats are already gone) and runs for a long time so it will shut the lot of you up and prove you wrong...Some of your comments are just wrong and just rude...Im sick of it and will not be posting in any Phantom forums ever again now...goodbye..you have just lost yourself a forum member...I really dont think any of you are true "fans" of the show...

Wow.... For real? Suspect scratch I always thought I was a "true fan".... Crying or Very sad

Should we call Troll Alert? confused
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Post  Guest Thu Oct 08, 2009 6:34 pm

On who? Me?


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Post  AngelofMusic Thu Oct 08, 2009 6:35 pm

I hate the thought of a sequel. I dont like that Conney Island waltz. Though, I listened to Ramin's song on YouTube and I liked the tune but the lyrics were blah and didnt sound like something phantom(and was that supposed to be the Christine robot in the background in the video)?
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Post  HerMajesty Thu Oct 08, 2009 6:39 pm

Not sure where my post went... Suspect

BUT although I'm skeptical, it HAS happened and as a self respecting phan I shall be there on the first night in my top price stall seat!

One thing I can say is Sierra Boggess is excellent, saw her in The Little Mermaid and she has a stunning voice, and she was a great Christine in Vegas. Ramin will have to be careful he doesn't look utterly **** next to her.


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Post  fondestgreeting Thu Oct 08, 2009 6:41 pm

phantomfett wrote:On who? Me? I don't think so....

Not you, phantomfett.

Seriously, carlottawannabe, you're not arguing at all. Instead, you've been shouting like a spoiled eight year old.
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Post  Guest Thu Oct 08, 2009 6:42 pm

fondestgreeting wrote:
phantomfett wrote:On who? Me? I don't think so....

Not you, phantomfett.

Seriously, carlottawannabe, you're not arguing at all. Instead, you've been shouting like a spoiled eight year old.

Oh, whew! Very Happy

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Post  Phantom on a Budget Thu Oct 08, 2009 6:59 pm

fondestgreeting wrote:
phantomfett wrote:On who? Me? I don't think so....

Seriously, carlottawannabe, you're not arguing at all. Instead, you've been shouting like a spoiled eight year old.

Agreed. "True fans" of the show are more than entitled to their opinion of the sequel, in favor or no. Her claiming that anyone not in favor of the sequel is not a "true fan" is both childish and short-sighted. I love the story in many different forms, not just ALW's original show, and even then I still think the entire concept of this sequel is a horrid mess worthy only of the garbage can.

"OMGZ, HOW CUD U1???!!? UR NOT A TRUE PHAN AND HATE ERIK!!!1!!ONE"

Simple. The story line, and indeed whole idea of continuing the story, wreaks of poorly written fan fiction and ruins the integrity of the original show, of which I consider myself a huge fan ("true fan?"). The music I've heard is adequate to my own ear, but by no means extravagant or powerful. The launch video seemed nicely done, but I don't see it as a wonderful event, because it revolves completely around an idea that I wholeheartedly disagree with.

So that's my little tirade. For those of you excited about the sequel (including you, carlottawannabe, because I know you're reading this): congratulations. I hope it turns out well for you and that you enjoy the time in seeing it. Just don't expect all other fans to share your enthusiasm, and certainly don't accuse them of not being true fans for disliking something that fundamentally does not fit with their interpretation or appreciation of the story.
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Post  The White Half-Mask Thu Oct 08, 2009 7:08 pm

Just saw the press release video. It didn't really change my feelings on the show. I'm opposed to the idea of a sequel, since I think the ending to the original really has a perfect sense of closure, but since it's officially happening, I guess that can't be helped. The Coney Island Waltz actually sounds really nice (except for that horrific shriek at the end), but it feels very different from the music from TPOTO. I didn't really care too much for "Till I Hear You Sing Once More". I suppose it's because it also sounds very different from the music from the original show. It doesn't sound "grand" or powerful enough for me, as opposed to the beauty of "The Music of the Night". Also, while Ramin has a good voice, I feel he is a little young to be playing The Phantom at 50-something years old. But I'm excited about Sierra Boggess as Christine 2.0.

Overall, I still wish "Love Never Dies" wasn't happening, but since it is, I'm mildly curious about it. I'll reserve my final judgment until I actually see the show in person, but I don't have very high expectations & strongly doubt that this will top TPOTO. Of course, I could be wrong & LND could surprise us all & blow us all away, but I'm personally not counting on it.

Oh, final note. Not a fan of the artwork. Too creepy & "horror movie" looking. It lacks the romance of the original "mask & rose" logo.
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Post  Paula74 Thu Oct 08, 2009 7:26 pm

carlottawannabe wrote:I really don not agree with ANYTHING you people say on here and have had enough

And I totally respect your right to disagree. However, you are not respecting the right of anyone to...oh, goodness, how shocking...have a differing opinion. Throwing a tantrum and storming out isn't going to win over anyone to your views. Pointing out what you personally liked about it and what you think are the strong points might have led to a good discussion.

Some of your comments are just wrong and just rude

The comments posted here so far are opinions and, really, there's no such thing as a wrong opinion. Now, there can be opinions based on incorrect facts, but it's pretty clear that everyone here is basing their comments on video from the exact same event you were lucky enough to attend. I, for one, really did hope that today's press event would have impressed me and dispelled some of my misgivings about the whole premise of a sequel. Unfortunately, as much as I would have been glad of that, it did not happen.

Im sick of it and will not be posting in any Phantom forums ever again now...goodbye..you have just lost yourself a forum member

Well, that's your loss then. Forum members will come and go. That's life. And if you want to be so offended by differing opinions that you'll turn your back on any forum where Phantom is discussed, no one is going to beg you to stay...or change their opinions to keep you here.

I really dont think any of you are true "fans" of the show...

Oh, mea culpa. I wasn't aware that there was some minimum criteria to be a true fan. I must have overlooked the fine print when I signed up. I'll have to tear up my fan card and mail the shreds to RUG.

Honestly, that's something that always irks me in any fandom...whether it's Phantom or a particular actor or another show. I hate it when anyone decides there's some arbitrary quota to be met before one can be a fan. Is someone who has seen the show ten times a bigger fan than someone who has only seen it once? Do you have to meet your favorite actor a certain number of times before you can say you're a fan?
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Post  Christine's Shadow Thu Oct 08, 2009 7:48 pm

Paula74 wrote:
Honestly, that's something that always irks me in any fandom...whether it's Phantom or a particular actor or another show. I hate it when anyone decides there's some arbitrary quota to be met before one can be a fan. Is someone who has seen the show ten times a bigger fan than someone who has only seen it once? Do you have to meet your favorite actor a certain number of times before you can say you're a fan?

To each their own. If someone feels they can measure themselves as a fan by how many times they've seen something/someone and own such and such and have such a styled room then go ahead. I'm happy to say I've been fortunate to see Phantom on more than one occasion, and even before I saw the show, I considered myself a fan simply because it was something I could enjoy musically. But hey, if it means seeing the show more than 5 times, owning 3 copies of each movie, book and different type of memorabilia, well then I'm screwed.

CarlottaWannabe Your opinions have been valid ones, but then again calling your outburst an opinion is one thing, if you're going to force them on others here, whatever, one less fangirl/boy to deal with here.

... SO ABOUT THAT NEW MUSICAL ALW IS WRITING. in my personal opinion, I'm not so hot on it. Wink
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Post  Phantom on a Budget Thu Oct 08, 2009 7:56 pm

YouTube link: ANNOUNCEMENT OF GLOBAL IMPORTANCE!

Win.
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Post  Christine's Shadow Thu Oct 08, 2009 8:00 pm

TGITPC.

I love you. I shall repeat this over on the phantom's opera.
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Post  InkedAlchemist Thu Oct 08, 2009 8:15 pm

To whoever first mentioned Lawrence of Arabia.. thank you for pinpointing why the Waltz sounded familiar.


My thoughts have not changed after seeing the release. Still have a morbid curiosity though. And of course Webber had to throw in turn of the century sideshows to spark my curiosity even further. As of now I'm setting myself up for massive disappointment. Maybe then it won't be so horrible?



*sighs*
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Post  operafantomet Thu Oct 08, 2009 8:21 pm

carlottawannabe wrote:Ok, I was at the launch today and thought the whole thing was just brilliant! I am sick to death of all your negetive comments in this thread about Love Never dies. I was there and loved the song, as did my fellow "phans" that were lucky to have been there. I really don not agree with ANYTHING you people say on here and have had enough...I hope that Love never dies does really well (ive heard already that most seats are already gone) and runs for a long time so it will shut the lot of you up and prove you wrong...Some of your comments are just wrong and just rude...Im sick of it and will not be posting in any Phantom forums ever again now...goodbye..you have just lost yourself a forum member...I really dont think any of you are true "fans" of the show...
I am glad you liked what you saw and heard today, and that the others seems to have enjoyed it too. I know it must be frustrating to be enthusiastic about something, and discover that others are not. I agree that this thread is overwhelmingly negative, but than might also be an expression of the majority not liking what they've heard so far?

I think it's a pity that positive opinions are not voiced in a better way than your last entry. Again, I understand your frustration, but I don't think intentionally offending others and accusing them of not being true fans unless they like the sequel is the way to win people over. A more constructive way could be to explain why you liked it, and maybe also start an own thread for those who's a fan. Instead you chose to leave the online POTO (forum) world alltogether. It's very in sync with your username, I'll give you that, but like Carlotta experience in "Hannibal" it seldom has the effect intended...
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Post  InkedAlchemist Thu Oct 08, 2009 8:30 pm

operafantomet wrote: It's very in sync with your username, I'll give you that, but like Carlotta experience in "Hannibal" it seldom has the effect intended...

Oh snap. lmao


But.... agreed. I'm all for keeping an open mind. Back when the movie was coming out, I tried to remain optimistic, and even started a forum specifically for the movie in hope to give it a fair chance before it came out to rip it to shreds. But I have my own reasons for not being on board with a sequel. The main reason being three little words from a certain novel. Erik. Est. Mort.

Will I go see it? Probably. But as I mentioned, I am already preparing myself for a disaster beyond all imagination.


Last edited by InkedAlchemist on Thu Oct 08, 2009 8:50 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Post  TGITPC Thu Oct 08, 2009 8:32 pm

Aha, thanks for posting my link again. At least some people appericate my rantings. *sigh* I got quite the nasty comment and some very sour ratings. Oh well, it had to be said. Very Happy
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Post  HDKingsbury Thu Oct 08, 2009 10:39 pm

carlottawannabe wrote:Ok, I was at the launch today and thought the whole thing was just brilliant! I am sick to death of all your negetive comments in this thread about Love Never dies. I was there and loved the song, as did my fellow "phans" that were lucky to have been there. I really don not agree with ANYTHING you people say on here and have had enough...I hope that Love never dies does really well (ive heard already that most seats are already gone) and runs for a long time so it will shut the lot of you up and prove you wrong...Some of your comments are just wrong and just rude...Im sick of it and will not be posting in any Phantom forums ever again now...goodbye..you have just lost yourself a forum member...I really dont think any of you are true "fans" of the show...

Okay, I will say up front that I am first and foremost a Leroux fan, that while I very much like ALW's show, my first love is Lerik. I also prefer Claude Rains's Phantom over the '04 movie. Does this mean I'm not a "true fan"?

All I've read here are people's opinions. Some I agree with, some I don't. But they are opinions. And I did not see one single post where one person bashed another for his/her opinion. Everybody has opinions. Deal with it.
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Post  SenorSwanky Thu Oct 08, 2009 10:41 pm

carlottawannabe wrote:Ok, I was at the launch today and thought the whole thing was just brilliant! I am sick to death of all your negetive comments in this thread about Love Never dies. I was there and loved the song, as did my fellow "phans" that were lucky to have been there. I really don not agree with ANYTHING you people say on here and have had enough...I hope that Love never dies does really well (ive heard already that most seats are already gone) and runs for a long time so it will shut the lot of you up and prove you wrong...Some of your comments are just wrong and just rude...Im sick of it and will not be posting in any Phantom forums ever again now...goodbye..you have just lost yourself a forum member...I really dont think any of you are true "fans" of the show...
Laughing Wow. I'm not sure you'll be missed. We're being completely honest and fair. No libel involved. We have opinions just like you, and it's because we're such fans of the original that we can't stand this new, bastardized, corrupt, nonsensical piece of rubbish that ALW thinks is a worthy continuance of the story we love.
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