The Raoul Appreciation Thread

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The Raoul Appreciation Thread

Post  starryeyed on Mon Jan 18, 2010 11:59 pm

At the suggestion of others and to not take over the Love Never Dies/ Favourite Raouls thread (i think it reads better if it is mainly about ACTORS) and the fact this is maybe one of the only boards out there who have posters who actually like Raoul I decided to start this topic. I hope nobody minds and of course anyone can set up similar ones for any other character.

I just thought this would be a nice place to discuss the character of Raoul - I am sure there will be some crossover with the Favourite Raouls thread can't deny that - and basically anything Raoul related.

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Re: The Raoul Appreciation Thread

Post  ML6 on Thu Jan 21, 2010 5:38 am

I want to post, I want to post!!!

I love Raoul. And like I've brought up many, many times, I see Steve Barton in the role and I think of how courageous, handsome, kind, and considerate he made Raoul. And it makes me think of the book, and how much Raoul cared about Christine. I mean, in the book, he KNEW something was fishy with the voice in her room, and the creepy meeting at the graveyard. And truly, how can you go wrong with a childhood crush and honest friendship? You can't.

Here's an interesting quesiton about Raoul: In drawings, I've seen Raoul being drawn with a thin mustache. (And there was the fact that Raoul had the mustache in the 1925 version, too.) Do you like him with or without?

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Re: The Raoul Appreciation Thread

Post  starryeyed on Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:13 am

I like that you brought up the book. I think a lot more people would warm to Raoul in the musical had he been better developed and made more similar to Raoul in the book. I think some peoples interpretations of Raoul in the musical just make him seem really stupid and as if he has to have everything carefully laid out for him to make sense of what is going on, whereas Raoul in the book always seems to (mostly) be on the ball. However, I have seen a Raoul who clearly appears to be in the first act considering things and piecing things together and this therefore makes Madame Giry's Tale and the "We have all been blind..." in Notes II seem more as if he has just figured away to execute a plan, not that he has just figured out what is going on. I much prefer that.

Interesting question about the moustache. Michael Xavier in fact on a cast change muck up wore a moustache while playing him did he not? Admitedly only for one show. I am not sure on that... for some reason I always associate them with older men however I am not entirely against the idea of him having one.

ETA: Is this just me or does anyone else find the line "Christine forgive me, please forgive me, I did it all for you and all for nothing!" really heartbreaking sometimes? It sets me off more than The Phantom's lines do at times.

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Re: The Raoul Appreciation Thread

Post  ML6 on Fri Jan 22, 2010 3:06 am

dolly-ry wrote:Interesting question about the moustache. Michael Xavier in fact on a cast change muck up wore a moustache while playing him did he not? Admitedly only for one show. I am not sure on that... for some reason I always associate them with older men however I am not entirely against the idea of him having one.

ETA: Is this just me or does anyone else find the line "Christine forgive me, please forgive me, I did it all for you and all for nothing!" really heartbreaking sometimes? It sets me off more than The Phantom's lines do at times.

Oh really? I notice in the Japanese/Korean versions, they have their Raoul always wearing one. It's sometimes a little... old looking. Or it makes the Raoul look older to me. But that's interesting that a Raoul that wasn't foreign wore the piece!

And, YES. I find it so horribly heartbreaking. Obviously, he tried to pretend that he could be stronger than the Phantom, but in the end, physically and mentally, he's no match for the 'genius'. I always love the look the Phantom gives the Raoul - it is usually 'triumph' or 'curiousity'.

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Re: The Raoul Appreciation Thread

Post  operafantomet on Fri Jan 22, 2010 9:20 am

ML6 wrote:Oh really? I notice in the Japanese/Korean versions, they have their Raoul always wearing one. It's sometimes a little... old looking. Or it makes the Raoul look older to me. But that's interesting that a Raoul that wasn't foreign wore the piece!
Bring on Byron Nease!

As for pure looks, he's probably the one looking most like Maria Bjørnson's Raoul sketches - but the blonde hair and the moustache is probably a big part of why:


I don't think any of the other Canadian Raouls had a moustache, though. I must admit I do prefer Raoul without moustache. Wearing one is perfectly period for the character, but for the modern eye it's synonyme with age and old-fashioned style. However, I do like occasionally seeing Raouls with a moustache, just for the variation.

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Re: The Raoul Appreciation Thread

Post  ML6 on Fri Jan 22, 2010 8:07 pm

Oh yes! I forgot about him, but it's so 'blonde' that I can hardly see it, so I forget a lot of the time that he even wore one! Thanks for that picture, operafantomet! And you're right, it fits the time period of the piece. But sometimes they're so BIG that it reminds me of Mario Bros. or something. The Korean/Japanese ones are the worst!

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Re: The Raoul Appreciation Thread

Post  starryeyed on Fri Jan 22, 2010 8:24 pm

Well would you believe... Raoul will have a moustache in Love Never Dies. Although I can live with that as I won't see the show and at least he is supposed to be older (however not really as old as I'd like all the characters to be.)

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Re: The Raoul Appreciation Thread

Post  operafantomet on Fri Jan 22, 2010 11:56 pm

ML6 wrote:Oh yes! I forgot about him, but it's so 'blonde' that I can hardly see it, so I forget a lot of the time that he even wore one! Thanks for that picture, operafantomet! And you're right, it fits the time period of the piece. But sometimes they're so BIG that it reminds me of Mario Bros. or something. The Korean/Japanese ones are the worst!
Some of the Japanese Raouls looks more like Hercule Poirot than Raoul... Laughing It's just too much. Something between the Byron Nease one and Poirot's moustache is better, methinks...

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Re: The Raoul Appreciation Thread

Post  phantomgirl110 on Sat Jan 23, 2010 7:48 am

Funny that you guys are discussing Raoul's 'stache in here, since Joseph Millson said in the new video blog posted on the LND website that Raoul will have one in the sequel.

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Re: The Raoul Appreciation Thread

Post  starryeyed on Sat Jan 23, 2010 8:24 am

I know it is funny, I posted about it few posts back because I had literally just checked this thread then watched the video and there was Joe saying he was going to have one. Spooky.

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Re: The Raoul Appreciation Thread

Post  phantomgirl110 on Sat Jan 23, 2010 8:35 am

dolly-ry wrote:I know it is funny, I posted about it few posts back because I had literally just checked this thread then watched the video and there was Joe saying he was going to have one. Spooky.
Ack! Sorry, somehow I totally missed that last post of yours. My eyes jumped right from ML6 's post to operafantomet's. My bad!

*goes off to check the LND thread to see if she's double-posted anything there like she did here*

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Re: The Raoul Appreciation Thread

Post  operafantomet on Sat Jan 23, 2010 9:45 am

phantomgirl110 wrote:
dolly-ry wrote:I know it is funny, I posted about it few posts back because I had literally just checked this thread then watched the video and there was Joe saying he was going to have one. Spooky.
Ack! Sorry, somehow I totally missed that last post of yours. My eyes jumped right from ML6 's post to operafantomet's. My bad!
I can see how my Poirot!Raoul freaked you out... Laughing

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Re: The Raoul Appreciation Thread

Post  starryeyed on Sat Jan 23, 2010 1:32 pm

phantomgirl110 wrote:
dolly-ry wrote:I know it is funny, I posted about it few posts back because I had literally just checked this thread then watched the video and there was Joe saying he was going to have one. Spooky.
Ack! Sorry, somehow I totally missed that last post of yours. My eyes jumped right from ML6 's post to operafantomet's. My bad!

*goes off to check the LND thread to see if she's double-posted anything there like she did here*

Sorry I wasn't being cheeky or pulling you up there. My post was easy to miss Smile No problems, we aren't like some forums here that get off on saying "I posted this a million pages ago" over and over again.

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Re: The Raoul Appreciation Thread

Post  Raphael on Sat Jan 23, 2010 4:45 pm

As I recall, Raymond Saar (the original San Francisco Raoul) also sported a moustache. It's definitely something you don't see very often, but I kinda like it since the character had one in the book.

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Re: The Raoul Appreciation Thread

Post  Callie Daae on Sat Jan 23, 2010 6:38 pm

Yes, I think it's a nice change when he sports a mustache, since he does in the book. Raoul is 21 in the book right?

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Re: The Raoul Appreciation Thread

Post  ML6 on Sat Jan 23, 2010 7:20 pm

phantomgirl110 wrote:Funny that you guys are discussing Raoul's 'stache in here, since Joseph Millson said in the new video blog posted on the LND website that Raoul will have one in the sequel.

I listened to that video on mute, so the fact that Raoul is going to be having one is crazy. Please, oh please, let us hope it doesn't look so (as Operfantomet pointed out) Poirot!

Also, I read somewhere (but correct me if I'm wrong) that sporting a moustache back then at a young age was a sign of wealth, title, and maturity.

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Re: The Raoul Appreciation Thread

Post  starryeyed on Sat Jan 23, 2010 8:04 pm

Which is a bit redundant when in the sequel he has squandered all his money? I'd say maybe it would be more suitable in the original but for my personal taste I'd prefer him not to have one in either show.

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Re: The Raoul Appreciation Thread

Post  phantomgirl110 on Sat Jan 23, 2010 9:40 pm

I'm so cynical about the sequel at this point that I can't help wondering if they're giving him a mustache because mustaches are generally not attractive to a lot of young women these days, and it's just another way to underline the fact that the Phantom is the sexy one and Raoul is the loser.

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Re: The Raoul Appreciation Thread

Post  Raphael on Sat Jan 23, 2010 9:52 pm

Apparently, Raoul can't even get any respect on Wikipedia:

Raoul nearly commits suicide under torture, and, when Christine's marriage promise to Erik saves them, has to be put to bed by Erik because of a poison that has left him "limp as a rag."
Raoul is described as 'having been petted by his two sisters and his aunt' and spoiled as a child, as he plans to go to the North Pole if he does not get his own way, but he is very kind-hearted.
Raoul has been to sea, and plans to go on a suicidal polar expedition if Christine refuses to pledge herself to him.
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Re: The Raoul Appreciation Thread

Post  starryeyed on Sat Jan 23, 2010 10:08 pm

Well at least here he has his own appreciation thread. To be honest, I really don't see all the negativity surrounding him. Even if people like The Phantom does this then automatically mean they must hate Raoul? I appreciate both characters and in my opinion if it were real life people would think Christine were crazy if she were to choose The Phantom.

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Re: The Raoul Appreciation Thread

Post  phantomgirl110 on Sat Jan 23, 2010 11:07 pm

I think part of the reason so many people dislike Raoul is there's a sort of Beauty and the Beast theme to the story that people take way too far. In the minds of phangirls, Christine is Belle, Erik is the cuddly-wuddly Beast who just needs to be loved, and that leaves Raoul to be Gaston. Think of how many fanfics portray him as arrogant, selfish, only interested in Christine as a trophy wife, etc. It sadly fits.

Of course, the biggest reason so many people dislike Raoul is that other people do. When I first got involved in the online fandom, I went through a phase of thinking Raoul was a stupid fop and that Christine was really dumb to pick him over the way better Erik...until, one day, I actually thought about it. The first phan I ever met online had filled my head with the idea of Raoul being a fop and I ran with it without thinking, and that obviously happens a lot. I've actually met a lot of phans who don't even know the definition of the word 'fop', but they insist that Raoul is one because that's the derogatory term they've heard a lot of people use.

For the record...

FOP: a man who is much concerned with his dress and appearance

A man who is overly concerned with his appearance? Hmm. Between Erik and Raoul, which spends more time worrying about his appearance...?

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Re: The Raoul Appreciation Thread

Post  ML6 on Sat Jan 23, 2010 11:27 pm

Raphael wrote:Apparently, Raoul can't even get any respect on Wikipedia:

Raoul nearly commits suicide under torture, and, when Christine's marriage promise to Erik saves them, has to be put to bed by Erik because of a poison that has left him "limp as a rag."
Raoul is described as 'having been petted by his two sisters and his aunt' and spoiled as a child, as he plans to go to the North Pole if he does not get his own way, but he is very kind-hearted.
Raoul has been to sea, and plans to go on a suicidal polar expedition if Christine refuses to pledge herself to him.
R.

Holy crap, where in the world did this come from?! Raphael, please, enlighten me? Is this some joke on Encylopedia Dramatica?

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Re: The Raoul Appreciation Thread

Post  operafantomet on Sun Jan 24, 2010 12:03 pm

phantomgirl110 wrote:For the record...

FOP: a man who is much concerned with his dress and appearance

A man who is overly concerned with his appearance? Hmm. Between Erik and Raoul, which spends more time worrying about his appearance...?
Tee-hee-he... Good one!

I never was a Raoul disliker. It's probably related to the first stage Raoul I remember (Tomas Ambt Kofod in Copenhagen). He managed to flesh out the character and make him stellar, and combining that impression with Steve Barton's wonderful Raoul from the original cast made me think all Raouls were like that - masculine, protective, handsome, well-singing, impressive.

I then read the Leroux novel, and quite liked Raoul there too. The first London Raouls I saw was also good; Robert Finlayson (which I found a bit wooden, but good per se) and Ramin Karimloo (a fantastic Raoul).

Imagine my shock when I saw Oliver Thornton as Raoul! Laughing It was so way out of what I had seen and read previously. Good actor, but SO miscast. I also saw a rather odd understudy in Essen (Christopher Morandi) and I suddenly understood that the quality of the Raoul actor is a make-or-break feature. You need more than a pretty face and a good voice. The role needs to be performed as a proper lead, one that is a serious competition to the Phantom. And it needs a majure approach somehow (not saying all Raouls should be 38 and have a moustache!).

If the role is performed as a secondary character, or too wooden, or too out there, you loose the balance, and it becomes a Phantom-Christine story. I know many prefer to see the story as just that, but I don't think it's correct. Maybe that's why people want to write off Raoul as a fop/looser/alcoholic... ALW, I'm looking at you! Suspect

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Re: The Raoul Appreciation Thread

Post  starryeyed on Sun Jan 24, 2010 3:00 pm

I think you raise a good point Anea about it sometimes resting on the actors performance of the character. I have never hated Raoul but will admit I tended to ignore him after the first Raoul I saw as I couldn't hear a word he was singing at times so I gave up trying. I also think I was the only person not to find this particular Raoul attractive (I don't want to name names as I hate to verge on bashing of one particular person.)

Then when the cast changed and I saw the next Raoul (Simon) okay his acting was really a bit odd but I could at least hear what he was saying and I started to warm more to the character. Since then Simon has only got better, Will has an amazing voice (but I am not keen on his acting at times) and I saw a good Raoul in Ryan on Broadway.

But I've never hated Raoul, not at all, I've always liked the character it is just unfortunate it rests on the actors performance. I'd say the other characters seem to get away with perhaps having the wrong people in the role. As much as I don't like Nicky for example Madame Giry doesn't annoy me as a character and as much as I didn't like Benjamin as Piangi didn't annoy me because of it.

The problem probably rests in the fact I find Raoul is an under developed and under written character and it takes a good actor to be able to flesh him out.

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Re: The Raoul Appreciation Thread

Post  Helen on Sun Jan 24, 2010 3:51 pm

operafantomet wrote:
I then read the Leroux novel, and quite liked Raoul there too. The first London Raouls I saw was also good; Robert Finlayson (which I found a bit wooden, but good per se) and Ramin Karimloo (a fantastic Raoul).

Imagine my shock when I saw Oliver Thornton as Raoul! Laughing It was so way out of what I had seen and read previously. Good actor, but SO miscast. I also saw a rather odd understudy in Essen (Christopher Morandi) and I suddenly understood that the quality of the Raoul actor is a make-or-break feature. You need more than a pretty face and a good voice. The role needs to be performed as a proper lead, one that is a serious competition to the Phantom. And it needs a majure approach somehow (not saying all Raouls should be 38 and have a moustache!).

I agree with you. Oliver Thornton was the first Raoul I saw, and I agree that he was completely miscast. I then saw David Shannon, and to be honest, he didn't make much of an impression. I always thought he'd be better as the Phantom. It wasn't until I saw Michael Xavier play Raoul that I began to like and understand the character. I think it was because he was the first actor I saw who played him as a lead role, rather than a supporting character. It was the first time that I could see the story from Raoul's point of view as well as the Phantom's. I also liked John Addison who was the understudy in 2008-09. I'm growing to like Simon Bailey's Raoul more and more. I wasn't sure about him when he first started, but I really like him now.

But I've never hated Raoul, not at all, I've always liked the character it is just unfortunate it rests on the actors performance. I'd say the other characters seem to get away with perhaps having the wrong people in the role. As much as I don't like Nicky for example Madame Giry doesn't annoy me as a character and as much as I didn't like Benjamin as Piangi didn't annoy me because of it.

I think it's because Raoul is vital to the story and his character can't be ignored. With Madame Giry and Piangi, you can kind of ignore them and focus on other characters.

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Re: The Raoul Appreciation Thread

Post  starryeyed on Sun Jan 24, 2010 4:32 pm

I'd say you are right Helen. If you attempt to ignore Raoul (which I'll admit I have attempted) it gets to the point where you wish he would stop coming on stage and is highly detrimental to the show, therefore you have to really take notice of a miscast actor.

I feel a bit sorry for Oliver Thornton, it was his dream role bless him.

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Re: The Raoul Appreciation Thread

Post  Helen on Sun Jan 24, 2010 5:13 pm

To be fair to Oliver Thornton, he did his best. I think he was quite young when he played Raoul. Maybe he would have been better if he was older.

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Re: The Raoul Appreciation Thread

Post  operafantomet on Sun Jan 24, 2010 6:34 pm

Helen wrote:To be fair to Oliver Thornton, he did his best. I think he was quite young when he played Raoul. Maybe he would have been better if he was older.
I dunno. He just doesn't seem like Raoul material to me. He's more of a "narrator in Cabaret" kind of performer, or a character in "Fame" or "Cats". There's something about his voice type and overall style that doesn't scream Raoul slash classical romantic lead.

When that is said, I came to enjoy his portrayal in the end. I liked his Super!Raoul, especially in "Wandering Child" and "Final Lair". He gave it all. But it's not how I prefer to see Raoul depicted...

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Re: The Raoul Appreciation Thread

Post  ML6 on Sun Jan 24, 2010 7:34 pm

operafantomet wrote:
Helen wrote:To be fair to Oliver Thornton, he did his best. I think he was quite young when he played Raoul. Maybe he would have been better if he was older.
I dunno. He just doesn't seem like Raoul material to me. He's more of a "narrator in Cabaret" kind of performer, or a character in "Fame" or "Cats". There's something about his voice type and overall style that doesn't scream Raoul slash classical romantic lead.

When that is said, I came to enjoy his portrayal in the end. I liked his Super!Raoul, especially in "Wandering Child" and "Final Lair". He gave it all. But it's not how I prefer to see Raoul depicted...

I always get the two mixed up - Robert Finnaylson and Oliver Thorton.

But oh god, don't get me started on Robert! His Raoul was a serious womanizing asshole. He didn't care a single bit about his Christine (who was Celia Graham). He just seemed to 'want her' because she was some 'rising star', and she'd give credit to his title. Oh god, if you wanted to nail someone with the whole 'stereotypical Raoul', it'd be him.

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Re: The Raoul Appreciation Thread

Post  IamErik771 on Wed Feb 03, 2010 4:25 pm

phantomgirl110 wrote:Of course, the biggest reason so many people dislike Raoul is that other people do. When I first got involved in the online fandom, I went through a phase of thinking Raoul was a stupid fop and that Christine was really dumb to pick him over the way better Erik...until, one day, I actually thought about it. The first phan I ever met online had filled my head with the idea of Raoul being a fop and I ran with it without thinking, and that obviously happens a lot. I've actually met a lot of phans who don't even know the definition of the word 'fop', but they insist that Raoul is one because that's the derogatory term they've heard a lot of people use.

This is very true... In fact, I was the exact same way in my early days on online Phan-forums. (New Phans can be quite impressionable, it seems.) After a while, though, I got to hear more different casts (since prior to that, I was only familiar with the OLC and movie soundtrack), and began to appreciate the fact that it takes a good actor to make the role interesting. I grew to like a fair few Raoul actors (especially Steve Barton), and also began to appreciate how he was portrayed in Leroux's novel (and a few of the adaptations and spin-offs as well).

I don't get into the debates over which character is "better" because I think both are absolutely essential to the progression of the other side of the story. If it wasn't for Raoul, Erik wouldn't have felt "threatened," and might never have revealed himself to Christine -- he'd have remained just the "voice behind the mirror." Similarly, if it wasn't for Erik, Raoul wouldn't have heard Christine sing and would have just went on his merry way to the North Pole. And of course, both helped with Christine's personal growth in very important ways.

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